doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Excelsior Witten-Lindner-Daly & Werner Gottgetreu

Lifted image of Lindner-Daly 1148 w/ tubeset number 1589.

A most interesting tid-bit/golden nugget of info by Axel E. on the GGCA site centred around Witten tubes regarding mechanic Joh(?) Werner Gottgetreu of Suhl. Axel E. attributes the G encircled W surmounted by a cross as possibly that of Joh. Werner Gottgetreu & I believe him to be correct. Joh. Werner Gottgetreu obtained his master's sheepskin by 1845 & it would appear he attained that rank by 1840/1841. He departed this life in 1919. I'm sure the possibility exists there were 2 generations of Werner Gottgetreu as being active 80 years is a lengthy span. Anyway, more diggin' there and this may bring more questions than answers. But I'm curious if there are any Witten Excelsior tubesets pre-1919 that do not wear the G encircled W surmounted by a Cross and at what state he sourced the tubes? I had always associated the mark w/ the Witten steel mark, situated between HAL control mark & the steel type stamp, so it passed by without suspicion. I'll add this to the eternal Lindner - Daly thread but I commenced another thread hopefully to get more exposure.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey - I'll check a couple guns tonight and report back.

Ken

raimey: what do yo suppose this is?

https://www.gunsamerica.com/955227934/HAMMER-GUN-BY-CHARLES-DALY-12-GAUGE.htm

Raimey - I looked at two Lindner made doubles with Witten steel barrels. The guns were made circa-1906 and circa 1908 respectively. Both carried the encircled W mark in the same spot.

Ken

Thanks Ken & I'm curious if any post WWI Dalys wear Excelsior Witten steel tubes? Probably not & something akin to a perfect storm, Joseph Gales expires in May of 1913, H.A. Lindner's son Ernst Lindner falls in fierce fighting early on in WWI(1915), Werner Gottgetreu retires/passes by 1919 & then Charles Daly's son in 1924. So many of the principals, subcontractors, etc. are taken out of the picture by a culmination of unfortunate events resulting in the demise of the Charles Daly firm, which is basically life's rich tapestry.

I'm also curious if any Excelsior Witten steel tubes were ever utilized for rifles?

Diese Vervollkommnung der deutschen Flinten ist zum gro�en Teil der deutschen Stahlindustrie zu verdanken. W�hrend die deutschen Gewehrfabriken fr�her ganz auf die ausl�ndischen Damastl�ufe angewiesen waren verarbeiten sie heute ausschlie�lich die un�bertrefflichen, silberleinen, deutschen Stahll�ufe. Die besten L�ufe liefern die Kruppschen Werke unter dem Namen "Spezialgewehrlauf Stahl von Friedrich Krupp Essen" und die Stahlwerke in Witten unter der Marke "Excelsior Witten". An diese deutschen Edelstahl Sorten reicht kein ausl�ndisches Erzeugnis heran. Jedoch ist der weiche z�he Gewehrlaufstahl lediglich f�r Flintenl�ufe verwendbar w�hrend f�r B�chsl�ufe ein festerer h�rterer Stahl von Krupp Essen verarbeitet wird.
Kosmos 1906

Last couple of sentences(thanks to those who rendered aide):

No foreign product compares with this German Special steel. However, the softer and more (ductile or tensile) 'Gewehrlaufstahl' is only usable for shotgun barrels, whereas Krupp in Essen uses a harder steel for rifle barrels.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ed:

That's an early example of Charles Daly's sourcing of Suhl's mechanics Georg Lindner, Triebel, Schilling, etc. There should be a set of initials on the underside of the left tube in close proximity to the lower rib. Those were workhorses for the American Sportsman.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

All of the post-WWI high-grade Prussian Dalys I have inspected to date have sported either Roeschling or Krupp special steel barrels. I'll have to check my Prussian Daly rifles, but I believe the barrels are Bohler steel.

Ken

raimey, thank you so much for your help...and i found the letters CR
right where you said they would be. ed

Ed, there are few possibilities for a Suhl mechanic(& Z-M mechanic for that matter) with the initials CR but Christian R�ll fits the bill but I'm unsure if he was a tubeset knitter. I'll dig a bit on him but he's about the only possibility for the late 1870s & early 1880s.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Bro. Raimey: I keep trying to 'splain I got no interest in that new-fangled fluid steel stuff but thought you'd find this interesting. Even in 1880 canon barrel steel was pretty good stuff. Krupp Fluss Stahl was not introduced until about 1890, and was AISI 1045.

The Journal of the Iron and Steel Institute, Volume 31, Issue 2, 1881
�Application of Solid Steel to the Manufacture of Small Arms, Projectiles, and Ordnance�
https://books.google.com/books?id=BCJDAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA456&lpg
Canon barrel composition
Witten is listed as �Cast Steel in Crucibles� � 3 samples
Siemens-Martin is Open Hearth process � 3 samples
Bessemer � 5 samples
Nobel is M. Nobel (Alfred's brother) of the Tjef Works in Perm, Russia using the Terrenoire process with silicide of manganese. Terre Noire process was developed by Compagnie des Fonderies et Forges de Terre Noire, La Voulte et Bessages near St. Etienne
Bofors Co. of Karlskoga, Sweden (later owned by Alfred Nobel) also with silicide of manganese

���.Witten��...�Bessemer�...Siemens�..�.Bofors��..Nobel
C_____.43 - .47_____.15 - .55____.5-.55______.4 - .5_____.12
Mn____.4__________.17 - .48____.12 - .22____.36 - .61___.53
S______.035 - .045__<.01 - .015__<.01_______<.01 - .02___.02
P______.057 - .08___.016 - .042__.014 - .024__.04 - .045__.11
AISI� High P 1044�������...............����..1044���1108
Siemens is similar to AISI 1050, but with about 1/2 of the AISI standard Manganese content.


By 1890 the steel producers were obviously attempting to manipulate carbon content, along with manganese
The Mechanical and Other Properties of Iron and Steel in Connection with Their Chemical Composition, 1891
https://books.google.com/books?id=-c8xAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA30&dq
For ordnance material generally a harder and stronger kind of steel is used, although some prefer a mild steel for guns:
Terre Noire: .12% carbon;
Cammell: .14 - .19%;
Vickers: .24 - .27%;
Trubia (Spain): .23 - .33%.
Harder steels:
Firth: .34 - .4% carbon;
Whitworth: .3 - .42%;
Bofors: .35 - .45% (cast without blowholes);
Witten: .47%;
Krupp: .45 - .71%;
Terre Noire: .5 - .88% (cast without blowholes).
�A modern gun being built up of different parts which have to fulfil different duties must not be made of one and the same steel unless different mechanical properties are obtained by different processes of hardening, tempering, &c.�
Barrels for small arms:
Solingen .13%
Terre Noire .3%
Spanish .43%
Witten .47%
St. Chamond .49%
Firminy .57%
Unieux .60%

Most interesting & many thanks for the effort. We will draw you from pattern welded tubes to the dark side sooner or later. But the word on the street in the day was that Witten was a bit soft for solid projectiles.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Probably that pesky Phosphorus Low phosphorus ore was only found at that time in Sweden and North Wales; and the Mesabi Iron Range in Minnesota and Michigan.

Raimey, I think the answer is yes, look here:

http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/a...;db=kat60_s.txt

Los Nr. 320, The Collath Double Rifle

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Probably so. Seems the Tiegelstahl - Qualit�tsmarke Excelsior(Wittener Exzelsiorstahl) or crucible steel gained new ground by the turn of the 20th Century(mid to late 1890s?). It was akin to Wootz and may have met its match w/ the advent of the electric furnaces by WWI.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stahlerzeugung#Historische_Verfahren

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

"Collath-Doppelb�chse mit ZF Kahles,
Frankfurt a. O. nach 1906, Nr. 21512. Kal. 9,3 x 74 R, blank, stellenweise N�rbchen in den Z�gen, "WITTENER-EXCELSIOR", neu br�niert, deutscher Beschuss Krone/"UGN", Laufl�nge 65 cm. Exzenterverschluss mit Hornhebel, Doppelabzug, Drehfl�gelsicherung auf Kolbenhals. Systemkasten mit Spuren von Bunth�rtung, Randstich- und Arabeskengravur, Signatur "W.COLLATH.S�HNE. FRANKFURT A.O." �berarbeiteter Nussholzhalbschaft mit deutscher Backe, Pistolengriff, Fischhaut, ventilierter Gummikappe, Hornabzugsb�gel, Druckstellen, Abstand vorderer Abzug - Mitte Schaftkappe 38 cm. Klappkimme sowie neue SEM mit ZF Kahles Helia Super 8 S1, Absehen 1. Montierter Leder-Gewehrriemen. Gesamtl�nge 108 cm.
Erwerbsscheinpflichtig."

Thanks Wolfgang if I recall correctly, Berger/Collath/Teschner was the source of Witten tube steel blanks.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Charles Daly Quality 275 Gun Nr. 1752 - Witten Excelsior - 12 bore - 30" tubeset, 7lb 15 oz

Charles Daly Quality 275 Gun Nr. 1786 - Witten Excelsior - 20 bore - 24" tubeset, 5 3/8 lbs

Charles Daly Quality 325 Gun Nr. 1885 - Witten Excelsior - 12 bore - 30" tubeset, 7 3/4 lbs

Charles Daly Quality 275 Gun Nr. 1919 - Witten Excelsior - 12 bore - 30" tubeset, 7 1/2 lbs

Charles Daly Quality 325 Gun Nr. 1934 - Witten Excelsior - 12 bore - 28" tubeset, 6 1/2 lbs
From 1912 Field & Stream vol. 79 adverts

Another interesting Lindner reference in 1941 Field & Stream Vol. 46 IDs Linde of Suhl, Germany as the maker of the Charles Daly Gun.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

More from the 1891 report
Gun Steels
https://books.google.com/books?id=-c8xAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA196&dq
Witten & Bofors were AISI 1044 - good stuff.
Looks like Krupp was having problems getting enough Manganese into their carbon steels at that point. Later Fluss Stahl was 1045 so they figured it out.

Many thanks for feeding the beast Dr. Hause. Pray tell, how many Bofors tubes have you seen? Were those on the LC's or Sterlingworths?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Berger & Companie Witten facility reference.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Witten 1881 article bar stock reference w/ particulars.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Bro. Raimey: Bofors was of course best know for their heavy ordnance, esp. the 40mm anti-aircraft and 37mm anti-tank guns. They did provide barrels for Sako rifles in the 60s into the 70s.

I have never read about a U.S. maker using Bofors 'rough forged tubes' but would be very interested to know more. It appears Bofors used the Siemen-Martin process and it is likely comparable Belgian tubes were cheaper.

Correct- I have a pre-Garcia SAKO 759 Forrester in .243 a Mauser style BA, and it has a Bofors Ordnance Steel 22" medium weight barrel. It is the last BA rifle I own (including several .22 M52 Winchesters) that I would ever part with. Strange, I have never heard of a Sandvik Steel gun barrel- do they exist??

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post191544


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Fabrikdirektro Dr. C. Schramm in Stahl & Eisen

May have been instrumental in the resurgence of Witten's Gu�stahlwerk's prominence in steel technology.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ein Louis Berger(Carl Berger) - Denkmal - Stahl & Eisen

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Jahrbuch des Vereins f�r Orts- und Heimatkunde in der Grafschaft - Volume 18

M�rkisches Museum der Stadt Witten

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Interesting that there was a Johann Gottgetreu Werner in Suhl from the 1850s also of maybe the name was just mixed?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse