doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help Identifying a Combination Gun

Very Cool Gentlemen.

Thank you for all of your awesome comments and assistance. I'll let you know the results of the cast and bore slugging. Cheers and enjoy your day.

MJS

runswithelk,
In your first post, you said it wouldn't close on a 7x57 case. Contrary to popular belief, the 7x57 is not simply a necked down 8x57. As in Axel's comments, posted by Raimey above, the 8x57 is based on the M88 case. The 7x57 case is known as the M93 case, which has a head diameter larger than the M88 case(nominal .468"vs .473").Rim diameters and thickness are also different between the two. The bore diameter of 7.7mm is pretty tight, but is often seen in commercial barrels. If when you slug the bore, you find a groove diameter smaller than .318", I wouldn't be overly surprised. The chamber neck would have been cut large enough for a .318" bullet( maybe larger)and will be perfectly safe with commercially available 8x57IR ammo, such as S&B. Enjoy your very fine gun, it will give many years of good service.
Mike

It's not a gun from Ferlach, it's a "Bockb�chsflinte" made in Suhl, Germany pre WWII. Gunsmith was August Wolf (AW), barrelmaker was Wilhelm Kelber (W.K), using Krupp steel.
The rifle cal. ist 8 x 57IR (7,7/8,07mm), Nitro proofed with 14,7g (227gr) steel jacked bullet.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your input on the combo. Yeah, when I bought the firearm, I was told it was a Walter Outschar, 16 Guage 2 3/4 over 7x57R. I was curious so I loaded in a 16 guage shell and a 7x57R round. Well, of course, it wouldn't close. I had already done some investigation on the stamps and proofs and it started to become clear that the combo was not as represented. That's when I joined this forum. You folks have been excellent help. I certainly appreciate everyone's input. Thank You.

Hi Ger,

Now that's incredible! Thanks for the info on the gunsmith and barrelmaker. I was hoping someone would know those initials. Any chance you know what O.W. 448 means?

Thanks for your input!

MJS

Was not made in Suhl & not by August Wolf. Small probability exists for tube effort by Adalbert Wolf but when sourcing along family lines is considered, more than likely the mechanics were Otto Wilhelm & Alfred Wilhelm. Negative on Wilhelm Kelber but the truth may lie with a mechanic like Willie K�nig. With the single K, the K mechanics may lie with the Klett Klan.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Other possibilities for AW might just be:

Albin Wahl of Zella Sankt Blasii, A.R. Wei�heit of Mehlis, Alfred Werner, Adalbert Wolf, Albert (Wilhelm??) Wolf and then there's August Wagner.





What dims might have you attained?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

>>>Was not made in Suhl & not by August Wolf.<<<
Why? I think it was. On the barrel is seen a S in a rhombus, also a sign for Suhl. On my Drilling from the same time the letters AW and on the right barrel "August Wolf" and on the left barrel "Suhl". My uncle (born 1899) told me for a long time that AW stands for August Wolf.
On my Drilling 633, it stands for proofed June 1933, therefore I think 637 stands for proofed in June 1937.
The scripted letters W.K stands definitely for the "Rohrmacher", barrelmaker Wilhelm Kelber, in another thread you have also written by your own.

Zella St. Blasii don't exist since 1919, Zella-Mehlis is the name of this city since this time.
Albert Wilhelm Wolf (A.W.Wolf) is a gunmaker family existing up to this time, more than 100 years old.

Good Morning Gentlemen,

It appears determining the gunmaker might be a more daunting task than I originally anticipated, but that's kind of the fun of it! Thanks for all your input.

According to the chamber cast I made, the dimensions seem very similar to an 8x57. I have yet to find some soft lead to slug the barrel, so I am still uncertain whether it's .318 or .323.

Does anyone have any tips on how to determine actual shot shell length? In looking down the bore with a dial caliper, I have compared it with another shotgun stamped 16/70. The caliper seems to end at the same length, but the angle makes it difficult to be sure.

Thanks again for all of your help.

MJS

It's absolutely shure, the caliber is 8x57IR. By this caliber it gave long time confusion between 8x57IR ( 7,7/8,07mm) and 8x57IRS(7,89/8,20mm)written down by RWS handbook Nuremberg 1940.
I use the caliber 8x57IRS and on the box of ammo is written:
"ATTENTION! Only for barrels with the larger S-caliber bores (Bore.310in.,Groove.323in.)
In this book from 1940 aren't any laborations for 8x57IR.
This gun by Aug. Wolf normally takes caliber 16/65 for shot shells in this era, the length is 60mm when unfired