doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Heuse-Riga Fils?

In the spectrum of Belgium Damascus barrel makers used by American gun-makers at the turn of the next-to-the-last century, where do the Heuse-Riga Fils barrels fall? Mid-range or bottom?

The �H.R.F.� of Heuse-Riga Fils has been found on Ithaca Flues, post-1900 L.C. Smith hammer guns, and Sears/A.J. Aubrey.

J.G. Riga also supplied barrels to Forehand & Wadsworth, Colt, Bacon Arms, and C.S. Shattuck.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20heuse%20riga%20gb.htm
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20heuse%20dynastie%20gb.htm


Brief submitted by J.G. Riga, Feb. 15, 1913 to the Tariff schedule hearings before the Committee on Ways and Means, House of Representatives
http://books.google.com/books?id=BCIuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5979&dq
Shotgun barrels are not made in this country and they can not be bought, and all the small gun manufacturers are obliged to buy all their barrels abroad and this duty would really work a great hardship to all the double-barrel gun manufacturers, such as the Hunter Arms Co., Fulton, N. Y.; Ithaca Gun Co., Ithaca, N. Y.; Baker Gun & Forging Co., Batavia, N. Y.; Lefever Arms Co., Syracuse, N. Y.; the Crescent Fire Arms Co., and the Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., of Norwich, Conn.; A. H. Fox Gun Co., Philadelphia, Pa.; N. R. Davis & Sons, Assonet, Mass., etc. All the above manufacture double-barrel guns, which is a real sportsman's gun.
Winchester Arms Co. and Remington Arms Co. manufacture mostly rifles, and automatic shotguns; single barrels, which are called "game destroyers;" these latter two manufacturers would not be affected by the duties, as their barrels, being single barrels and heavy, are made by themselves.

Thanks to Walt Snyder who provided this quotation from Harry Howland regarding c. 1920 Ithaca Gun Co. barrels - "We were getting all our barrels forged, rough drilled and rough turned from Belgium. We were purchasing them from either Samuel Buckley & Co. or from J. Riga & Co. and it was not until two or three years later that we began purchasing those barrels from the Flannery Bolt Co."
S. Buckley & Co., Manhattan was incorporated in 1921.

Damascus quality is best determined by the over-all quality of the gun
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YJxP1k3PzmtmrG1HEGxd8X6g0-1GL0KNY8WMIMkdKr0/edit

Dr. Drew:

In a general sense, your above stated assertion is true "Damascus quality is best determined by the over-all quality of the gun". But...we have all seen very good wood on lower-grade guns. Are you telling me that the same never happened with barrels? Considering the variety available in the late 19th and early 20th century, that seems somewhat unlikely. What would be immensely useful for many of us here (it's your own fault, you've spoiled us badly and now it's never enough) would be a grouping of different barrel-types by range of strength, assuming, of course, standard (unaltered or corroded) dimensions. Say Sir Joseph Whitworth fluid steel and others of that upper-strength range (Krupp, Siemens-Martins, Winchester Proof-steel, etc.), then stepping down in 10 or 20K psi burst increments to the truly scary stuff (like aboriginal scelp that can't stand 25K PSI). Nothing hard and fast here, just relative groupings in ranges of "safety" (i.e., tolerable pressures) for lack of a better word. I realize that truely scientific, exacting, and repeatable data is going to be spotty at best here. But...even ball-park estimates would have significant value when evaluating a gun for purchase and/or resurrection for most of us.

The English Trials of 1892 (or whenever that was) is a good starting point, but the descriptions of the actual barrels being tested are fairly cryptic as who exactly made them and how (& where) they were marketed.

What say you? (Really, all I'm asking for here is a PDR for Damascus and early fluid steel barrels.) We can expect that by, say...noon tomorrow?

Ferdinand Drissen's 1897-1898 price sheet gives us a good idea of what the barrel makers PRICED patterns; and the higher priced patterns went on the higher priced guns.

This is how Remington did it on the 1894
A Grade: "Two stripe Damascus" (Boston and Oxford 2 S.J.)
B Grade: "Fine Three stripe Damascus" (Oxford 4 S.J. and Chain J)
C Grade: "Finer Damascus" (Etoile and Washington)
D Grade: "Very fine (Four stripe) Damascus" (Chine and Legia P.)
E Grade: "Finest Damascus" (Peiper and Ohonon 6 S.J.)
In the 1903-04 Remington Arms Co. catalogue the C Grade changed to "Fine Damascus" and the D to "Extra Fine Damascus." In the 1906 catalogue the B Grade became "Three-stripe Damascus." (courtesy of David Noreen)

The conversion of Belgian francs to U.S. dollars in 1900 was about 5 francs to 1 dollar. The complete charge for the barrels and gunsmithing for '3 band Crolle' was 80 francs or about $16.



In 1900, Jean Lejeune of Nessonvaux listed the following prices for damascus barrels alone: 'Oxford'-16f, 'Boston'-10f ($2), and 'Birmingham'- 8f

In 1914, Arthur Delvaux-Heuve of Nessonvaux offered '3 Band Boston' and 'Star' for 14 francs.

Gunmakers made what would sell within a target profit margin and by 1897 prices for a pair of Belgian steel (Decarbonized, Siemens, or �Mild Steel� not specified) �rough forged tubes� were much cheaper than pattern welded.
�1897 Consular Report: Commerce, Manufactures, Etc.�, Volume 54, United States Bureau of Foreign Commerce
http://books.google.com/books?id=SF1IAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA526&lpg
Steel.....................$0.58�.(3 francs)
Twist....................$1.16�.(6 francs)
Boston 2 Stripe....$1.93�.(10 francs)
Oxford 3 Stripe....$2.90�.(15 francs)
4 Stripe Crolle�....$4.825�(25 francs)


Re: strength issue. The average tensile strength in my (yet to be published) study for crolle Damascus was 54,500 psi. The sample size was small and pattern variety limited, but I would be surprised if there was a significant difference between the various patterns.

Dr. Drew:

Thank you! Not quite the "Rosetta Stone" was hoping for, but the rough answers are extractable from the data provided. So...50 to 60 k for the relatively later-era Belgium 2 bar Crolle-type Damascus tubes, 60 to 70K psi for the early Cockerel-type fluid steels, and 80 to 100k (and up) for the Krupp/Siemens range tubes? From my own casual observations of the world of Ithaca (& the other Americans), the standard HRF 2-bar was about comparable to the similarly priced Cockerel steel (60 to 70K psi) used in the early Ithaca Flues gun. Both seem to be used mostly on field and slightly better grade guns (1s & 1 1/2s). It does seem that with the onset of hostilities in the First World War, the whole game changed. The wonderful variety of barrel options narrowed severely at that point, never to resume again (certainly for the braided stuff). Fascinating period of history.

Just now saw this from above: "Winchester Arms Co. and Remington Arms Co. manufacture mostly rifles, and automatic shotguns; single barrels, which are called "game destroyers;". Well whadda ya know? A line of demarcation in the gun world existed even then.

Short version is that AISI 1020 Low Carbon Steel, Siemens (Open Hearth) Low Carbon Steel, and Decarbonized or �Plain� Steel were similar in strength. "Rolled" Decarbonized was slightly higher; ie Marlin �Special Rolled Steel� and Winchester Standard Ordnance �Rolled� Steel.
All ARE slightly higher in tensile strength than Crolle or Twist.

Everything changed with the introduction of Krupp Fluss Stahl in 1891, higher carbon steels (1030 & 1040), and the rapid development of steel alloys thereafter.

Ok, that makes sense. Not hard to see why Damascus lost market share so quickly. Mild steel was only 1/3 of the price of good 2-bar (Boston 2-stripe?) by 1897. But, I am in the ballpark on the later Belgium braids (Crolle and Twist) and the earlier, (1020 range?) fluid steels being somewhat comparable (~50k to 60k)? Obviously, a good idea to hand-load if you're using either (or find some RSTs).

Bad things happen to barrels since leaving the Heuse-Riga shop Lloyd, and we have an obligation to do what we can to establish barrel integrity (starting with wall thickness) but the makers said the barrels were for Nitro powder

1895



And in 1907 Sears said they were safe with Nitro powder

"Every gun we offer for sale...is made to stand any proper load of nitro or black powder..."




Remember, pre-WWI 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. Bulk and Dense powder shells generated pressures above the SAAMI 2 3/4" 12g maximum of 11,500 psi