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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,750 Likes: 501
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,750 Likes: 501 |
Darn right the .270 is a bad choice to go bear hunting of any color. Ted, I was after Moose not Brown bear. With proper bullet and decent placement a .270 at reasonable range will cleanly take down my intended game. A 30-06 or larger would be a better choice. But in the 1960-1970 era we were hearing about the magic of the .270, 7 Mag, 25-06, .44 Mag so in my formative years I fell victim to my education by the writers of the day. I don't blame them or myself.
Look at today's articles. The new calibers are just as magical as those they have replaced. I hope no Brown bears and young hunters meet in bad combinations. I don't even look at the bears in a zoo. I did years ago with my kids and I swear one of the bears winked at me and pretended to use his paws in a ripping motion. Have a happy new year.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,618 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,618 Likes: 7 |
Zutz was better than most of his contemporaries, in my opinion.
Askins the senior was one of the best shotgun writers, also in my opinion.
Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
To those of you who aren’t fond of Don Zutz’s work, this could be interesting as he said, "If we started from scratch to reinvent the ideal shotgun shell - - it would end up looking a lot like the 16 gauge." This is a Zutz opinion with which I disagree. The span of shotgun purpose is way, way too wide for there to be an "ideal".
Don Zutz reminds us in Shot gunning -- Trends in Transition (1989) that ". . two of the most famous rulfed grouse hunters of all time -- William Harden Foster and Burton L. Spiller -- focused in their books on the 16. Perhaps the most famous shotgun in all upland writing is the 16 gauge Parker hammer gun . . . `The Little Gun' of Foster's New England Grouse Hunting. And when Burton L. Spiller narrated the ordering and purchase of his first custom bird gun in More Grouse Feathers (1938), it turned out to be a 16 gauge." Two choices of gun and gauge. No argument from me as to these being perfectly workable choices. I do not, however, believe that the 16 will out perform the 12 given equal gun suitability of fit (both stock and handling fit) to the shooter. I'd add the 20 as long as we keep the loads at or below an ounce. Do grouse require more than an ounce?
Annie Oakley set a world's record by breaking 4,772 out ot 5,000 thrown targets in nine hours in February, 1885 (The American Rifleman, October 1998 issue). “She chose a couple of 16 gauge doubles for the job -- she knew the secret of the 16's reputation for superb patterns and modest recoil.”. OK, what secret is that? Given a constant load and relative constriction, the 16 will pattern just like a 12. Not better, not worse. Given constant recoil factors, the 16 will recoil just like any other gauge.
The above is interesting to me because after many years of shooting upland birds with a 20 gauge SxS, I discovered a 16 gauge in the form of a #2 AyA and have never looked back. A perfectly fine choice of gun and gauge. No reason to look back. But, not magic.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,278 Likes: 11
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,278 Likes: 11 |
To those of you who aren’t fond of Don Zutz’s work, this could be interesting as he said, "If we started from scratch to reinvent the ideal shotgun shell - - it would end up looking a lot like the 16 gauge."
Don Zutz reminds us in Shot gunning -- Trends in Transition (1989) that ". . two of the most famous rulfed grouse hunters of all time -- William Harden Foster and Burton L. Spiller -- focused in their books on the 16. Perhaps the most famous shotgun in all upland writing is the 16 gauge Parker hammer gun . . . `The Little Gun' of Foster's New England Grouse Hunting. And when Burton L. Spiller narrated the ordering and purchase of his first custom bird gun in More Grouse Feathers (1938), it turned out to be a 16 gauge."
Annie Oakley set a world's record by breaking 4,772 out ot 5,000 thrown targets in nine hours in February, 1885 (The American Rifleman, October 1998 issue). “She chose a couple of 16 gauge doubles for the job -- she knew the secret of the 16's reputation for superb patterns and modest recoil.”
The above is interesting to me because after many years of shooting upland birds with a 20 gauge SxS, I discovered a 16 gauge in the form of a #2 AyA and have never looked back.
That, in a nutcase shell, clearly substantiates my comments in a way I would never have even wasted the energy on. thanks, Jim. and Rocketman too sorta have another day Dr.WtS
Dr.WtS
Mysteries of the Cosmos Unlocked
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Careful, careful, Dr. WtS. That got dangerously close to a compliment. 
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 460 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 460 Likes: 12 |
Wonko, you probably need to reread (or perhaps read for the first time) Zutz' "The Double Shotgun". A lot of lovers of classic sxs are probably put off by the fact that he was not all that high on the British, nor on most of the classic American sxs except the Model 21. Speaking from the British side of the Atlantic, I enjoy my copy of "The Double Shotgun", and I'm not in the slightest 'put off' by any lack of cover or support for British products. I find the coverage and support he gives to Darne and Merkel (to mention just two I happen to own) refreshing. These makers are often overlooked by other writers, but make interesting products. I cannot really comment on any coverage of American products because its an area where we see very few over here - perhaps surprisingly. I have never really understood why, but we see many Italian, Spanish and other European guns, but apart from Winchesters (mainly O/U models from the last 30 years), very few American products. A Happy and Prosperous New Year to all.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 236
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 236 |
Can the previos 3 posters pleazze tell us how many alaska browns theyve killed and what caliber and bullet used and details of the hunts? Trophy pixs would be nice too. As Sgt Friday would say just the facts. Your facts pleeze not things read while on a sofa in mn pa or mich. OK, one more time, KY Jon was NOT hunting brown bear with a 270 he was hunting a MOOSE with a 270 and while hunting a MOOSE with a 270 he was jumped by a brown bear. Now do you get it???? Hey Treblig better go back to gradeschool reading comprehension class. I never said 270 is ideal brown bear rifle and neither did O'Connor. Heres what I wrote ---- Would you pleeze give us the reference for alleged O'Connor endorsement of 270 as a brown bear rifle and-or for any thing in North America? Book or magazine article reference? O'Connor never wrote that 270 was an ideal brown bear rifle. as I remember he said it was on the light side but with right bullets it would work by a cool shot and under ideal conditions. As usual sofa experts don't comprehend what is written or convert it to soap box materiall. Ky Jon was hunting moose with 270 yes and OConnor said 270 is not ideal browny rifle. Now dude do ya get it??? Hey will one of you get that alleged endorsment from OConnor that 270 is great for any thing in N.A. or is ideal browny rifle? Reference pleeeze. So far you all are avoiding that cuz you can't find it becuz he never wriote it. That's the point. get it?
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
"Would you pleeze give us the reference for alleged O'Connor endorsement of 270 as a brown bear rifle and-or for any thing in North America? Book or magazine article reference? O'Connor never wrote that 270 was an ideal brown bear rifle."
Remember this statement by you? And you just answered your own stupid question. No, but you did accuse someone of hunting brown bear with a 270 and he didn't. He was hunting moose with a 270.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,398 Likes: 108
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,398 Likes: 108 |
Couple comments re both ends of the current discussion:
Zutz was an extremely prolific writer. And he was very broadly experienced when it came to shotguns. At one point or another, you can find him saying positive or negative things about every gauge out there . . . including the 24, for which he reloaded at one time. Praising the 16 makes sense, for the simple reason that it's a very useful gauge for all upland birds (and for that matter for ducks as well, back when we could shoot lead). Lots of writers also talk about the "magic" of the 28ga, which is far less versatile than the 16. I wouldn't condemn him for that, or for that matter wouldn't condemn any writer for expressing his likes and dislikes. Gene Hill, for example, didn't like the 20ga and made no bones about it. Yet according to survey data from LODGH (Loyal and Dedicated Grouse Hunters), it's the choice of half those who pursue ruffs, and significantly eclipses any other gauge in popularity.
Re using enough gun, Bell wasn't the only one to use a 7MM on large and dangerous game. Corbett shot most of his maneating tigers with the equivalent of a 7MM.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 247
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 247 |
And I could care less what Jack O'Connor said or recommended about anything. Ya, Pa deer hunter knows everything. Please tell us about your big game hunting career and articles and books authored.
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