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My 12ga cutter. I never have to consider base wad height, they are always the same no matter what hull I am cutting.




Last edited by oskar; 11/29/15 03:57 PM.

After the first shot the rest are just noise.
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Possibly the easiest and most available factory load is the Winchester AA low-noise, low-recoil load. Even though it's a 2 3/4" shell, the 6,200 psi is low enough for use in 2 1/2" chambers. It would be suitable for Trap and smaller birds, and runs about $8 per box in most of the country.

Regards
Ken


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AND, remember that most 12 ga shells are actually 2 5/8, so
the increase in pressure is about NIL.

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Originally Posted By: Ken61
Possibly the easiest and most available factory load is the Winchester AA low-noise, low-recoil load. Even though it's a 2 3/4" shell, the 6,200 psi is low enough for use in 2 1/2" chambers. It would be suitable for Trap and smaller birds, and runs about $8 per box in most of the country.

Just wondering where you are getting 6,200 psi for Winchester's AA low-noise, low-recoil load? Their literature states 11,500 psi.
Winchester AA low-noise, low recoil load


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Tim, I believe just about all American manufacturers list their pressures as being "within SAMI specifications", which means no more than 11,500 psi. That keeps them out of the courthouse. As sensitive as they are to legal liability claims they would probably list a firecracker as within the maximum.


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Two things - first, you can shoot 2 3/4" shells in your 2 1/2" chambered gun -the pressure doesn't go up that much, so if you're shooting low pressure there's no worry. Second, if you find a low pressure 2 3/4 load use it in your 2 1/2" shell, at least that's what I do. Good luck - Paul

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Here are two loads I've used. I got this data from a Canadian friend of mine. All the standard liability disclaimers apply. Load and shoot at your own risk. By using this recipe, you acknowledge that if your gun blows up, I cannot be held responsible. grin My un-named Canadian friend is also covered by this disclaimer.

Federal Paper Hull cut down to 2 1/2 inches.
22 gr. SR7625
Federal 209A Primer
WAA12 Wad trimmed down to fit
7/8 oz. Lead Shot

Federal Paper Hull cut down to 2 1/2 inches.
14 gr. Green Dot
Federal 209A Primer
WAA12 Wad trimmed down to fit
7/8 oz. Lead Shot

Ballistic Products plastic over-shot card and roll-crimp on both.

I have never chronographed these loads or had them pressure tested, however they are very light recoiling and comfortable to shoot.

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Originally Posted By: Paul Harm
Two things - first, you can shoot 2 3/4" shells in your 2 1/2" chambered gun -the pressure doesn't go up that much, so if you're shooting low pressure there's no worry. Second, if you find a low pressure 2 3/4 load use it in your 2 1/2" shell, at least that's what I do. Good luck - Paul


I have shot tens of thousands of 2 3/4" hulls in my 2 1/2" guns and have never encountered any problem whatsoever. As Paul said, tests have demonstrably shown pressure increases, if any, are statistically insignificant. Remember, gun manufacturers such as Parker who cut chambers 2 5/8" recommended 2 3/4" ammunition be shot in them. They wanted the hull to open inside the forcing cone to provide a better gas seal. I wouldn't dream of going to the trouble of shortening hulls. I wonder if our hangup with chamber length comes from being a nation of riflemen where chamber length, etc., is everything.


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Originally Posted By: Joe Wood
Tim, I believe just about all American manufacturers list their pressures as being "within SAMI specifications", which means no more than 11,500 psi. That keeps them out of the courthouse. As sensitive as they are to legal liability claims they would probably list a firecracker as within the maximum.

Hi Joe,

Thanks. I was just wondering where the 6200 psi came from for the Winchester AA low-noise, low-recoil loads. I had this very discussion about a year and a half ago because I was shooting these exact shotgun shells in my vintage British shotgun and was worried about higher pressures. Anyway, Larry Brown on this forum stated that factory loads from different lots of ammunition can have very different pressures. So it could be dangerous to make a blanket statement about pressures, that is likely why Winchester just states the max. 11,500 psi. I have since gone to shooting 2 1/2 inch English Gamebore Pure Gold at 7832 psi or their paper hull version at 6526 psi.

Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Originally Posted By: JDW
"But as long as the pressure does not exceed 11,500 psi for a 12 bore, they're good to go. But if they say the velocity is 1330 fps, for example, that's going to be pretty close."

Larry with the different loads out there now, you can no longer state what you wrote above. As you can see from this recipe from the Alliant site, this is pretty close to your 1330 fps and nowhere close to SAMMI.

This load is for 3/4 oz. shot using 12 gauge Remington Gun Club or Nitro hull.

16.0 Extra-Lite Rem. 209P CB0175-12 1310 7300

I use a load similar to this using Titewad instead, the fps is a little slower.


JDW, you're misinterpreting what I said. I'm referring to FACTORY shells, not reloads. But my point is this: Just because you test a particular factory load and find that it produces a pressure of, say, 9,500 psi, you cannot be confident that the exact same load--same company, same shot charge, same velocity (or dram equivalent) marked on the box--will produce the same pressure if it comes from a different lot. Ammunition makers vary the powders that they use. They don't worry about pressure, other than to make sure that they stay under the 11,500 psi SAAMI service pressure ceiling. The next shell you have pressure tested may develop 8,000 psi or it may develop 11,000 psi if those shells are from different lots. But they will all be quite close to one another in velocity, because velocity is the constant towards which the ammo companies work.

Even though my point was in reference to factory loads, it's easy enough to confirm by looking at reloading books. You can have higher pressure loads that produce lower velocity than lower pressure loads. And you can have a higher pressure load and a lower pressure load that produce the same velocity. If we shoot vintage guns, we worry about pressure. Winchester, Federal, and Remington do NOT worry about pressure other than not exceeding the SAAMI maximum because their loads are not designed for our guns. Their major concern is sticking to whatever velocity is marked on the box. RST, on the other hand--making shells designed for our vintage guns--will focus on pressure. For obvious reasons.
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Tim,
You are exactly right. Unless the pressure is stated from the manufacturer, you will never know from lot to lot. A friend use to shoot AA feather in his hammer Purdey years ago. I thought it was risky, although he never had a problem. I just stuck with my tested LP handloads.


Bill Johnson
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