doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lengthened forcing cones and proof

My understanding is there are no "proof laws" in the U.S..

That being said, clearly the proof status of English guns (and likely other foreign sourced guns) has a bearing on value.

Would I buy a foreign gun that was out of proof? Possibly. Just identifying whether it is out of proof by measurements would be the first step. Taking into account some loss of value due to that and the physical discrepancies that make it so, along with the effect on performance /strength, price, potential resale issues, desirability, etc, would all play into whether I'd buy it.

Not relevant to the "in proof?" question, but the forcing cone wall thickness of every U.S. maker vintage double that I have measured, a few with lengthened cones (of 1 1/2" or less) was equal or greater to the wall thickness at the end of the chamber. The angle of the forcing cone is greater than that of the exterior taper of the barrel.

HOWEVER, inexpert or excessive lengthening most certainly can be dangerous; a SAC with a lengthened chamber and cones with a wall thickness of .087" at the (new) end of the chamber, with a bulge and crack



Bore view with 4 circumferential "dents" and linear tool marks from whatever apparatus was being used during reaming



Chamber lengthening is an entirely different matter, and the bulge in this Smith 16g barrel is related to a thin wall from lengthening the chambers to 2 7/8". Wall thickness was .096"





Choose your barrel guy carefully, and read the seller's "return policy" with discernment.

Ed, the last time you attempted to sell some guns here in the For Sale section, Dave Weber questioned you about your return policy. Do you recall your extremely evasive answer before your ads were pulled?

In the UK, lengthening the forcing cones does technically take the gun out of proof. This was established by the Proof Houses back in 90's when doing so was all the rage.
However, since there is no standard forcing cone, I can't see how the Proof House could establish the forcing cones had been lengthened (unless they were told by the perpetuator) and so declare the gun out of proof.
Very old guns had very abrupt forcing cones so a nice gentle FC in an old gun that had not been reproofed in the last 50 years could be assumed to have had the FC extended but it would be impossible to prove.

keet: my business policies are not the topic of this thread, nor should they be...

once again you demonstrate your lack of respect for this thread and for those who post here.

Okay, so as I am beginning to understand, lengthening the forcing cones of an English double does technically take the gun out of proof according to English proof standards.
Taking a gun out of proof should also effect the price. Comparing one gun out-of-proof with an identical gun that is still in proof, the out-of-proof gun will be valued less in the market. Correct?

"Comparing one gun out-of-proof with an identical gun that is still in proof, the out-of-proof gun will be valued less in the market. Correct?"

maybe...depends if the buyer perceives the alterations to the out of proof barrels improve the desirability of the gun.

for example, some english guns have had the chambers lengthened. some buyers perceive that as an improvement.

some english guns have had the barrels reamed to remove pitting, in order to improve appearances. some buyers perceive that removing pitting is an improvement.

Ed, This thread may not be about you but when you continue to make dishonest statements you can expect to be called out on it, on whatever thread it is.

I bought one gun from you, total. A BSS. I called you to talk about the gun and asked about a return policy. Your reply was that you did not allow returns. You then stated that I could expect that you knew what you were selling and represented guns as such. In a moment of weakness I bit, and bought the gun. It would not recock the right barrel when fired, over half the time. Knowing I had bought the gun "as is", basically, I did not even bother to call you, but had the gun repaired at my cost.

Exactly when did you change your return policy? Or, is it still the same, "No returns, you can expect me to know what I'm selling"?

If your return policy is the same as it was when I bought the BSS, then did you know the gun was faulty, and figured that if I would buy it, after being told I could not return it, you would "make out like a bandit"? Or, has your return policy changed since then?

SRH

Like just about everything American we overbuild. We overbuild for heavy loads and we have lawyers who bring law suits so our builders don't build the light guns they do because of proof laws over the pond.

As for China et al, it is a silly question