doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Bayard Hammergun Help

Bob, as you probably know the date codes on Belgian guns started in the early 1920's. Before then there were none as far as any
one knows. In the 1978 Gun Digest there was a fairly extensive article on Belgian proof procedures by Lee Kennett; according to this article the choke marking, the chamber/ gauge marking and the smokeless proof marking changed several times between 1898 and 1924, here is what I have gleaned from this article.

choke marks
1878 to 1897---- NOT POUR BALL
1897 to 1898---- CHOKE
1898 to 1910---- CHOKE 17.0 16.3 bore and choke in MM
1910 to 1924---- CHOKE 17.0/16.3 bore and choke as a fraction
1924 on--------- CHOKE 17.0 ( no choke indication)

I have no idea how accurate this information is but it is a start, Kennett missed the date codes that started in 1922 or so. there is 10 pages of info in this article, including 2 pages of proofmarks. I think Genos posting of the date codes is accurate, the only questionable one would be 1952, which I think should be a greek letter. If you don't have this book I can scan it for you, my email is in my profile.

Jim

Thanks Jim...I should have that Gun Digest in the attic somewhere...I see what you mean about the choke dating being off chart so to speak...but what if the gun has both? Hopefully I will find no evidence of both...I will run it down over the weekend and post my findings here for you ...thank you again...Bob Chambers

Kennett's usually pretty accurate, but I have a Francotte from the 30's marked "18.4 choke 18.3" on both barrels.

I have inserted foot in mouth on more than 1 occassion trying to date a Belgian gun. I used to go by the date stamp (often missing) or the controller's mark (not very accurate). It has been and continues to be a learning experience.

For what it is worth... Some marks with dates:

Crown over ELG with star at bottom, acceptance of proof at Liège, 1893-1968.
The lion over the PV which indicates nitro proof in use 1898-1968.
Barrel weight, 1.169 Kg . This started in 1892, after 1924 fractional weights (eg 1.169.1) were no longer used.
Lion over PV, nitro proof, 1898-1968.
Crown over ELG with star at bottom, acceptance of proof at Liège, 1893-1968.
CHOKE, 1897-1898
CHOKE 17.0, 16.3, 1898-1924
CHOKE 18.0, 1924-1968
70/20.6, 1892-1924
inside a diamond 16 over C, 1898-1924
inside a circle 12-70, 1924-present

The Kennett articles in GunDigest. You can usually find a copy on eBay for $5 or less.

22nd Edition Czecheslovakia -1968
23rd Edition Austria Hungary & Austria - 1969
24th Edition France - 1970
25th Edition Spain -1971
26th Edition Italy - 1972
27th Edition Hungary - 1973
28th Edition Russia - 1974
29th Edition Germany -1975
30th Edition Military - 1976
31st Edition England - 1977
32nd Edition Belgium - 1978
33rd Edition India -1979

If any of the above is not accurate, please correct it.

Thanks,

Pete

Double checked my Francotte to be sure. It's a 1930 gun by date code, 1931 by serial number, and definitely post-1924 by the 12-70 in a sort of capital C. Yet the choke markings on mine read like Kennett's example of an 1898-1910 gun--except the word "choke" is between the two numbers rather than in front of both, as he illustrates in his article.

Larry, it just proves the old statement, "never say never" is true. I have a Jamar Frese with the same choke marking and a date code that is maybe 1937?? The rest of the markings are post 1924.

Also, and again someone likely has an exception, but the "70/20.6" which is chamber length & dia just ahead of the rim seat, both in MM's is "Normally" found only on those guns receiving the optional Nitro Proof, ie Lion/PV. It was not a requirement on those guns proofed only with Black Powder proofs.