doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Super-predators?

There was some bilge on the internet the other day (Friday?) about how man acts to further degrade wildlife populations by focusing on the prime adults and not on the young and the weak like normal animal predators do, or would. The argument was that it acted to further degrade breeding stocks, leading to a world-wide population declines. Now, if the argument was credible (which, I'm not persuaded by), that would more-likely apply to big game than birds and fish. Most of the hunters I know (which, I'm guessing the vast majority of hunters fall-into) are simply not in the "super-predator" class. Most are lucky to ever have a game-meal, & maybe only once a year. Then....there are the exceptions, and I happen to know a few, that seem to always have game in their freezer (or freezers?). These individuals live for the hunt, devoting huge energy into the planning and execution of each trip. My question is this, are there enough of these types of hunters (& fishermen) to really make a difference in world wildlife populations? I'm fairly convinced there is not. I think degradation and loss of habitat is the primary challenge.

My take on that is there is so much un-huntable land that it could only happen in very isolated situations.

When the Boone and Crockett Club was formed, the record book measurement system was put in place for the sole purpose of measuring the return of the population. It was never intended to be a bragging right. With that said, a 170 inch whitetail buck was considered a once-in-a-lifetime achievement. That deer would indicate the return of the health of the population. Look at how many B&C 170 inch deer are taken now. The population has most definitely recovered. The same is true of many big game populations. Competition for habitat remains the biggest challenge to wildlife populations. Animal predators do not choose the young or the sick. They choose the animal they can kill with the least effort. If the first animal they can kill easily is a 370 inch bull elk, that is the one they take.

The answer to the question is yes.
But it's also species dependent.

Animals with short lifespans are typically a food for other animals with longer lifespans. So anxiety over interrupting evolutionary processes via hunting is probably misplaced. Most small prey animals have high birth rates, high annual mortality.

And it's been shown that hunter participation is tied to perceived likelihood of success. So, hunters are mostly compensatory on small game.

All that said, which is the central tendency for a shotgun website, Man absolutely changes the evolutionary processes within target species of longer lived game animals. Specifically the mega fauna and cervids.

Animals with a social structure (like Elephants) depend on a complete breadth of age class to teach age specific behaviors. That's one of the reasons elephant herds are so strictly managed.

I eat wild fish and game nearly everyday. And always have it in my freezers.

Lloyd - the article I read was about the mass extinctions humans have caused since becoming effective hunters, not about modern sport hunters. North America, Europe and Asia used to have large mammal faunas as diverse as what remains in Africa today - many species of elephants, rhinos, bison, camels, horses, giant ground sloths, etc. etc. And all the great predators that ate them. The coming of humans wiped these out very quickly in the Old World, and in the blink of an eye in the New World. When humans arrived in North America roughly fifteen thousand years ago, there were 34 genera of very large mammals; five thousand years later they were all gone. Same thing happened earlier when humans arrived in New Guinea and Australia, and later with industrial whaling in the 19th Century, with most of the world's fisheries, and is happening with elephants and rhinos today.

That article was not condemning sport hunters. It was pointing out that humans are incredibly efficient predators that take the mature reproducing adults out of a population, unlike natural predators that focus on young and aged animals that are less important for reproduction. Modern wildlife management avoids these extinctions, but we lost nearly all the big stuff before anyone even noticed what was happening.

Humans can certainly extirpate just about any desirable species.
Sometimes we do it and don't even know it's happening.
We just don't see so many of those anymore. Then it's, "I haven't seen one of those in years..."

Any species that needs years to reach sexual maturity is a candidate. Like Great White Sharks.

When I was young, I prepped cod for lenten fish fries. Take a filet, cut it into servings size pieces, and check for bones.
They were 4 feet long, and 6" thick.

When's the last time anyone here ever saw a cod filet anything like that?

We are sifting the oceans with factory precision.

Humans don't have a clue what they're doing when they think they are "managing" a species. When I first started farming row crops here there wasn't a deer track anywhere "out on the hill". Some of you Southerners may know what that colloquialism means.The few there were lived in the deep swamp. The DNR said "Bucks only" for many, many years. The populations exploded to the point that we now have one of the highest density rates anywhere in the U.S., in my county. Now, we are issued depredation permits hand over fist to kill does all summer in our crop fields. I have never been refused a request for repeat permits because the DNR knows how bad it is. They eat so well here on crops that triplet fawns are a common sight throughout the summer. Last I heard the limit was 10 per season, per hunter. I quit "hunting" them 20 years ago. Now I just kill them. No fun, no sport, just an ugly necessity. What a waste.

SRH

Stan it is a 12 deer annual sport hunting limit in GA with a requirement that 2 be antlered bucks. No shortage here...Geo

Super-predator? Darn right. With the gen. 3 NV and thermal equipment we are using to control deer and hogs we can be pretty efficient. Neck shots only. All these were processed for consumption, not a fun job on a hot, humid Georgia night.

Don't watch this if you're squeamish about killing big mammals. It is not pretty, but it is highly efficient the way we do it. Notice the bucks among the herd, and that only does were targeted, as per DNR instructions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmuM5trgpL8

SRH

I couldn't watch it all Stan. Too effficient. I grew up with NO deer here in South Ga. The first ever saw were on the edge of the Okefenokee in about 1962 or so. I was 14.

A friend had just turned 16 and had a new VW Bug. We drove over to an area just east of where the Suwannee comes out of the Swamp and stayed in a guest cabin at a fellow named Lem Griffis' place and dog hunted. Two does ran across the road in front of me.

Lem Griffis was an old time story-teller and one of the most remarkable people I ever met. What an adventure!

I hunted deer seriously for a long time after that, but now just rent the deer rights on my place to Atlanta folks who care more for it than I do. I don't have the heart to kill one anymore I don't think...Geo

P.S.: No problem with those who still feel the thrill of the hunt though!