doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Unusual Syracuse

RR.
With a serial number of 321XX, yours is another example of a SAC gun frame serial numbered out of sequence as regards production features, as the over-whelming number of 12-bore examples I've seen in the 32XXX up to about 32499 have been the Second Model SAC gun with fixed cocking hooks; and not a 3rd model with the sliding cocking hook feature seen on this example. But there are a fair number of examples, such as the C Grade in the DGJ article, I've seen that don't fit the standard mold (I also have an OO Grade 12-bore in the 21XXX range, and a 16-bore A Grade in the 28XXX range with the sliding cocking hook feature). The only real high-conditioned SAC guns I have at the moment are a Frist Model Grade OO and a Grade 3 gun; and I have a very nice Third Model Grade B 12-bore (I've owned a few others in the past). To be honest, I've not noticed any unusual finishes on barrel ribs; only that both top and bottom ribs were steel regardless of whether the barrel tubes were Damascus or fluid steel. Don't know why SAC used steel ribs on their Damascus guns as opposed to making them from Damascus as was standard procedure for so many other period makers; but thought the end result provided a nice contrast, which final appearance I must assume was created by whatever chemicals and finishing processes were used to high light the Damascus pattern (obviously had to finish the barrels after both ribs were soldered in place).

Woody, as regards the latest SAC DGJ article, I can assure everyone that the subject C Grade is an amazingly beautiful gun in spite of the pics; but readers will never know that because of the equally amazingly poor picture quality. Seems that the folks at the DGJ did not use the photos provided by Terry Allen; but instead used the captioned scans I had forwarded with the manuscript. I am unable to express in words my disgust with the end result; but apologize to the those members here who may be wondering what happened.

As to taking pics, I have no talent; which is why I work with Terry Allen. Glare is always an issue when photographing metal objects; so in working with Terry, I've asked how he deals with glare. Terry says glare can't be eliminated, so he uses additional lighting to equalize glare over the entire metal surface; a tricky procedure compounded by the combination of round and squared surfaces, and varying surface depths encountered on all shotgun frames. Photo sessions usually take several hours; and Terry is constantly snapping photos, adjusting lighting, and checking the result before finally getting the finished look as regards lighting, detail, and color that is acceptable to him.

Topgun;
My Lefever guns whether Damascus or Twist have steel ribs. I cannot make any positive statement on this but highly suspect these barrels were imported as Tubes Only, with the ribs supplied by the maker. These makers would not have had the damascus/twist iron available to use.
When the barrel maker themselves actually assembled the pair then he was more likely to make the ribs of matching type metal. Just a thought.

Miller, I had a very high grade Lefever crossbolt with fluid steel barrels and Damascus ribs. I assume the ribs were originally blued to match the barrels.

Other Lefevers sitting around here show steel ribs on most Damascus or twist barrels, but these guns have Damascus or twist barrels with composite ribs. John Nichols B grade, Lefever sidecocker E grade, Lefever thumb push B grade, and a Lefever H grade.

One Parker C grade with Damascus barrels has a steel rib, while a D grade with Damascus barrels has a Damascus rib.

2-Pieper:
Didn't mean to imply that most Damascus guns have Damascus ribs, just said "so many other period makers" did. I've seen a fair number of Damascus Parkers (and other makes) with Damascus ribs; but my own observations seem to indicate that fluid steel ribs become a lot more popular once makers began machine matting top ribs (obviously have no hard evidence, only personal observations; but Damascus ribs sure seem to the norm on early guns with unmated ribs).

And you are correct as to SAC's importation of barrel tube stock, as somewhere in my research stack I have a period article relating to SAC's introduction of their small bore (16 & 20 gauge) models in which it was discussed estimating demand as they prepared their overseas barrel/tubes order for the coming production period. But regardless the rib type steel used, it seems a bit far-fetched to me that a company such as Parker would allow their barrels to be assembled over seas. Although I am aware that some small and obscure American makers ordered in un-finished barreled actions for completion here in the states; unless it can be proven to me otherwise, I simply have to believe that Parker assembled their own barrels to include those with Damascus ribs at the gun works.

Stunning case colors and a very nice gun overall.

I work with a guy that has a Syracuse Arms double and tells me about it all the time since he knows I'm into doubles. I bug him all the time to bring it in. I think this post will motivate me to get a look at it. Tells me it's not for sale was wife's uncles. He's not a gun guy so I to find an angle to get it.

The McKinley Tariff of 1890 set the average ad valorem tariff rate for imports into the United States at 48.4%. "Sporting, breech-loading double-barrel shotguns" had a 35% ad valorem PLUS an import duty of $1.50 if priced less than $6; $4 if $6-$12; and $6 if priced greater than $12. "Single-barrel breech-loading shot-guns" had the same 35% ad valorem PLUS an import duty of $1.
�Forged rough shotgun barrels� i.e. non-joined tubes, however, were exempt from the tariff which allowed the US makers to continue to import Damascus tubes from (mostly) Belgium to fit and finish here.

Nov. 30, 1895 Sporting Life
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_10/SL2610011.pdf
"How Shot Guns Are Made and the Process Through Which They Pass Fully Explained"
The beginning of the manufacture of a gun is the barrels, and it is generally known that no barrels are made in this country except the rolled steel, which is used on the Winchester gun. All gun barrels are now imported, although an attempt was made a few years ago to produce them in this country, but with only partial success. England, Germany and Belgium supply most of the barrels, the latter country doubtless producing the larger quantity.
All gun barrels, whether imported direct from the makers in Belgium, or through an importer in this country to the gun manufacturer, are received in rough tubes, which very much resemble a couple of gas pipes, but being somewhat larger at one end than at the other. These barrels or "tubes" as they are called, are merely tied together in pairs, with small wire and 40 to 50 pairs are packed in a box.

Infro re: Damascus barrels and ribs here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zEE1xuaNuR26Drg3E_IMUEpA_YThLMP0VSIx2xJM9bA/edit

Drew, that "rib show" was wonderful. Thanks

Tom , I have a question that popped up when I saw the subject gun in this post. Did Syracuse Arms use both color case hardening and bluing to finish their trigger plates. The couple of guns I have here, and other guns in the attached pictures seem to have had blued trigger plates.

It might be of some interest that all of the Baker boxlocks, which were related to Frank Hollenbeck, had blued trigger plates. I saw one Baker boxlock which was re color casehardened. The previously blued trigger plate warped badly. It must have been a type of metal that was different from the rest of the receiver which came out find.

Find out what he is "into", then find something we really wants to trade for it.