doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1940 reproof ?

Looking at a 1899 16 gauge French gun which was proofed for S and T powders when made, then Reproofed in 1941 with a Nazi nitro proof stamp both, J and N German reproof stamps also on the barrels. I can look up the S and T proof loads but have no idea what it was proofed at in 1941. What was the standard nitro proof the Germans used in 1941 and was it redone in France or in Germany as a war trophy?

Why the reproof I wonder? Chambers are stamped 65. Were many guns reproofed after they were confiscated by the Germans? If only these guns could talk. A French gun, liberated by a German, then liberated again by a GI and brought back the the US. I am trying to steer the new owner away from Wally World factory shells but need to explain to him what the gun was designed to shoot and has been proofed to shoot. Perhaps the best thing is to just tell him what it was proofed for when made but I like to give him both then and the later proof pressure levels.

Proof marks I have are S.2.93_30
T.2.99_30 might be 89 or 99 Damn Nazi overstamp.

I see the T proof was the normale and the S the higher d'epreuve

I see no picture,
Y'all see a picture??

Mike

I'd have to search a bit, but I don't think compulsory proof in France was established until 1960/1962. In 1923 France had new proof rules to mimic the 1914 International Proof Conference rules but law wasn't implemented until mid 1926. Not sure what went on between 1926 & 1960. Reciprocity w/ France may not have been established/occurred until early 1960s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I've seen some odd War time mixing of French & German stamps & I'm curious if a French sporting weapon was exposed to some of the final compulsory German proofs, i.e., that the German final Nitro & data stamp were a result of German occupation of the French proof facilities?? France wasn't a portion of the Sudeten Protectorate but was under German occupation.

Kind Regards,

Ramey
rse

Wasn't the J stamp a repair stamp and the N stamp a reproof stamp after repair? Both with an eagle over the letter? Maybe it was taken to Germany, repaired and then reproofed in Germany?

Complicated because I believe St. Etienne fell within the unoccupied zone (Vichy) initially, although the entire country was eventually occupied.

I'd certainly avoid your typical promo loads if it's still 2 1/2".

I told the new owner 8K as a reasonable level. Gave him RST and Polywad as a starting point. If the German nitro proof, in 1941, was more than 8K I could not tell him if it had passed a higher proof level than for 8K. Still, better safe than sorry and he might never shoot more than a few rounds of skeet with it anyways. I just wanted him to be safe what ever he decided to do. Nice gun but French guns all seem to be as much about style as function.

A couple years back I saw something similar for sale at the local-to-me Cabelas: a French 12ga 65mm sxs, with the usual St. Etienne proofs, with German proof marks for a date of 741. That gun also had the SuS (Sauer und Sohn) monogram as well as the Nazi Waffenamt eagle stamped into the buttstock and the watertable. Best I could figure was it was either a German soldier's bringback from France or looting by the German government, in either case having to be reproofed in Germany before it could be used or sold. And then a GI bringback.

It was a solid gun but, like just about every other French double, light. If I were in your shoes, advising the owner, I would pass along to him that he - and the gun - would be a lot happier if he were to limit himself to 2 1/2 inch shells and, as you note, lower pressures. If the gun is in good shape I wouldn't be as worried about pressure (esp. from promo loads) as I would be about the recoil. This, especially because using 2 3/4 shells in a 2 1/2 chamber will enhance recoil. With a light gun, the recoil effects on shooter and gun are even greater.

The problem with 16ga promos is that they're all 1 oz, and all--I think--1165 fps. That's because they need enough recoil to make 16ga autos work. The result is that they can be pretty "punchy" in light 16ga sxs. RST sells 3/4oz 16's that kick a lot less (in addition to 7/8 oz).