doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How do you define a best gun?

Being continually used and lasting over time IS ENDURANCE! And seeing that the gun has been around for nearly a hundred and fifty years, 500 to a 1000 shots a day in a Perazzi is just pure speculation on that guns longevity, it has not even done the first century yet. While the Purdy has overcome the Brit. weather, rust, abuse, misuse, and been fed more cartridges than I could even begin to imagine. NO PROOF NO CONTEST!!!!!!!!!!! My money is on the Purdey being used for another hundred years and Kim Rhode�s Perazzi all I will say I believe the guns will never meet in the future let�s just say seventy five years from now.

Interesting take you have on endurance Damascus. Which, if correct, would cast grave doubts over the quality of today's Purdeys and Holland and their opting for modern steels, (just like Perazzi's incidentally), CNC, EDM, and the whole spectrum of high tech manufacturing. You seem to be implying that the new ones will not last as long as those made of mild steel and empirically heat treated.

Condensing a lifetime of operation cycles in a short space of time is the way most manufacturers test their wares, especially high spec manufacturers, as in aerospace parts. Recently I read Ruger do similar exhaustion tests on their guns.

Closest test I recall for Purdey was the 500 000 bag of game by Lord Ripon, using several sets of Purdey guns, not one. And those guns were regularly sent to the maker for service and repair (read Beaumont, Purdey's The Guns and the Family).

My bet is on the modern certified steel and controlled heat treatment. I risk a prediction re 75 years from now, that a greater percentage of stainless steel Flodman/Caprinus shotguns will survive than any other.

Your argument is pure speculation and for a start you do not know who the first owner of this Purdey was. Also you cannot foretell the future like I can�t but the chances of a well-connected Purdey has a lot more going for it than a Perazzi. This gun has been their done that and has the tee shirt! As for modern Purdy guns don�t try to put words in my mouth they will last as long as the world will allow as you well know. You seem to desperately want to prove a point of speculation which is not truly possible also you seem to have thrown everything into the ring including the kitchen sink, but in the end this Purdey has lived until now still working as Purdey the younger intended, a cast Iron un-arguable fact. And my last input on this matter they do exhaustive tests on Aeroplanes, space vehicles, cars to name just a few things of this modern world and yet they fail so exhaustive testing is no guarantee of anything.

I have an 1890 Parker DH with 32" barrels that has never been opened, has had an unearthly number of lord knows what ammunition shot through it, and is still chugging along like it was day one. Oh, it also has Damascus barrels. Guess it could never qualify as a "best" but don't tell that to all the generations that have used it for their bread and butter.

Let's get off of this "Best" kick since it can never be defined and would be nonsensical even if it were. It is pure snobbery. A much clearer term to interject would be something like "high grade" or "high quality". Even those tags would still be available for pot shots though.

I am a real sucker though for high quality guns, those that exhibit fine workmanship. Fancy wood and/or engraving have little weight in my eyes. But it's the quality of the chosen materials and how they were assembled and finished that turn me on. For a primer on this subject a gun such as a Lindner made Charles Daly might be a useful yardstick from which to judge others.

Damascus when you say:

"you do not know who the first owner of this Purdey was"

I am confused. You mean Lord Ripon's Purdey?

"As for modern Purdy guns don�t try to put words in my mouth they will last as long as the world will allow as you well know." Yes I know that they are now made of high grade steel and undergo regulated heat treatment, because I read the former production manager's report saying so, and I believe him. There is no magic in the name. It is science and technology.

I fail to see the speculation in my post, most things stated can be verified and measured, sources cited.

Joe, the best gun crowd exclude the Parker, I do not. One feature alone, the designed-in retightening provision on its cross pin and bite, put it in the top category according to my standards.

To get back to the original post re defining a best gun. It is clear from several pages of posts that there is no such definition. It would be entertaining to see a legal case hinging on this definition and see how impartial judges would tackle it in the context of the laws covering the sale of goods.

"Best" is subjective. I do believe Toby is correct.

That said to best is first a gun that fits the shooter, properly choked for the shooter's style of shooting and type of game, 100% quality engraving, good wood, excellent to near prefect metal to metal and to wood fit, checkering done as near prefectly as can be seen, and balanced.

I believe some round actions do qualify. Maybe a box-lock? I do not own any round actions, but still lust for one, and regret the field grade german round action i had but traded away.

I have seen some American guns that might qualify, one 16 LC A2 (I think it was an A2) or premier was so near prefect I still curse myself for not buying it. But the reality is the big London makers set the bar. I do not own any London SLE best, and probably never will, but i do own several Belgian SLE, all made in the 20's that meet the London mark without the name.

I love beautifully executed and technically near prefect guns. Given mechnically sound design and actions in the end a best gun is the one you shoot best

Joe -

It's not pure snobbery to say that some designs are superior to others and that other designs are pretty much equal.

The British gun trade proved this through its own evolution. In the early days of hammerless doubles & ejectors, there were all sorts of designs. Most faded away, a few remained. For the most part, the ones that remained were the pretty much the best.

I love American stuff - Parkers, Foxes, Smiths, Ithacas, etc - and I'm a huge sucker for the sentiment and nostalgia that's fuels their interest.

But I don't think for second that they compare in quality with a WR droplock, a top Greener FP or G gun, or even a Dickson, Francotte or Lindner Daly. They simply don't - and that's OK.

The American guns were never meant to compete with top London stuff. American doubles were less expensive, and they were built for a different kind of shooter under different conditions.

So I don't have any issues with stuff that's not the Best. I own lots of it. But I don't think for a second that some stuff isn't better than the rest.

And Darnes stink.

OWD

Colonel you hit the mark with this one:

"That said to best is first a gun that fits the shooter, properly choked for the shooter's style of shooting and type of game, 100% quality engraving, good wood, excellent to near prefect metal to metal and to wood fit, checkering done as near prefectly as can be seen, and balanced."

Best was invariably bespoke, ie made for someone specific. Fit and choke went together and the execution quality is essential.

Engraving is the only one that bears disagreement but I admit to a possible overload. Plain steel seems so restful to the eyes, as in some Holland Dominions.

This thread proves the need for what I call a tactile gun museum.

A representative collection of guns, perhaps deactivated so there would be no legal obstacle to visitors handling, swinging and manipulating them, to get a tactile sense of each type. For withouth tactile sense, judging only visually, it is hard to distinguish what differentiates, for instance, a common sidelock from a worthy sidelock.

The last gun in the line up, one to experience after all the doubles, best or otherwise, would be a medium quality single barrel made by a second tier British gunmaker in the 1900-1920 era. You handle one of those and it will put the words handling and best in perspective.

I would certainly have a big problem calling that model a "best". Purdey's do a best o/u, it's the Purdey Woodward. The Perugini Vishini model is a less expensive lower grade model, not a "best". Made in Italy (or anywhere else) is not the problem. Not being made to the finest standards and specifications is.