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Hi Ted, well perhaps I have and perhaps not. Your gun is an exception. I know I used to have one. While it was a good gun, mine had problems. Light primer strikes more often than not. The pins were not mushroomed, but I guess the spring was weak , why I don't know. Anyway, IMHO the Model 30 is a plain basic BLNE nothing fancy, but I'd take a 700 over it any day. Guess this is were we differ. I've never had any striker or spring problems with any of my Brit guns, to include a J. Blanch built in 1886 or so. I've never had any ejector problems either (I like ejectors, in fact all my hammerless guns are ejector guns). If you've seen some of those $400 specials someone likes so well, you'd know what I'm taking about. I guess sometimes one does use a broad brush to get a point across. Anyway, best of luck to you and your Model 30.

Best

Greg

Well Kyrie . . . I guess our definition of "very nice" is different . . . or else perhaps you didn't look at the descriptions of that treasure trove of Gunbroker guns you tout so highly.

Here's what my search on Gunbroker turns up, for used Spanish sxs:

I find a total of 8 guns between $4-600. (I actually broadened the criteria a bit: From $350-700.) 2 of them are 10 gauges. (If you want a cheap 10ga sxs, Spanish is an OK way to go.) There's a 26" 12ga for $425 . . . sounds good until you spot that 12 1/2" LOP. Thought I had a real winner with a Stoeger Zephyr for $ 700 . . . until I saw the 24 1/2" barrels. Then there's a decent looking Uggie for $700 . . . but it has a very visible crack (repaired, it says--looks like with Elmer's glue!) in the toe of the stock. And a "light" ZH 12ga, at only $475 . . . although "light" is defined as 7 pounds. And another Zephyr 12ga for $535 . . . with rust on the water table. And it looks as if several of these Spanish sweethearts are stocked with top grade Iberian beech. Sorry . . . not a winner in the bunch. If I want a gun for that kind of money, I'm going to look around for an Ithaca SKB 100 12ga somewhere around the top end of your price range. (Which, by the way, is pretty much a Japanese copy of a W&S 700.)

But hey Kyrie . . . thanks for the trip through the Spanish junkyard. There's an old saying that goes "The devil is in the details." Looks to me like you missed a whole flock of devils in your gunbroker search.

Ted, you found a pretty good bargain there. Take a look at what I found, going through Kyrie's "bargain basement" inventory. There are a few out there, but a gun like that for $400 would be an unusual find these days. I found a nice AyA 20ga extractor gun, made for Sears, at a recent gun show. Also very nice . . . but more like 12ga weight because it was a magnum with a BT forend. (Not a bad idea for a gun to be heavy if it's bored for magnums.) Just a little more than you paid. But given that a new Model 30 will run you around $16-1700 (and thanks to the Internet, people are more aware of prices these days than they used to be, especially on pretty common guns like Uggies), you're not likely to find one for that any more. Twice that in good condition would be a good price. And frankly, for twice that I'd do the same thing I suggested to Kyrie: I'd look for an SKB 100. I've had a bunch of those, never known of one to break a striker. (Never had a W&S 700 break a striker either--although I've put WAY more rounds through SKB's.)

And, as Greg pointed out, this whole discussion started with a focus on VINTAGE Spanish guns, because Kyrie made clear reference to all the guns that were used for driven shooting in Spain before WWI. Which, given the fact that there are plenty of those "delicate" Brit guns from that era still in regular use, begs the question: Where are they? Do they survive in any kind of numbers today? Are a high percentage of them still in regular use? Why is it we don't see some of them circulating in this country? It certainly seems that the Spanish gun lover would enjoy showing up at the range with his 1900-vintage Pedro Jimenez, of a quality equal to maybe a Powell boxlock (or better yet, a "best" sidelock) and showing off to his friends who paid more for old Brit guns.

I don't know where any old Spanish guns are, Larry. But, I'm not ready to say they don't exist simply because I haven't seen them, or don't know where they are. It wasn't that many years ago that we were seeing really beat up model 30s, and other Spanish guns, that were clearly 1940s vintage guns, at super low prices, that jive pretty well with Kyrie's explanation of the tax that was levied on gun ownership in Spain.
I'd be willing to bet that most integral striker/tumbler guns will never fail. But, that doesn't mean I am willing to be holding the bag when one does. That is a complex little part, it takes the gun out of commission on one side, and it will cost just as much for Abe Chaber, or Kirk Merrington, or some other good 'smith to hog one out for an SKB as it would for a Westley Richards, or a 700.
No thanks.
By the way, Larry, I think my gun is right around 6 lbs 7 ozs. It is light enough that I'd never consider letting a 3" round go off in it, not while I was holding it, anyway. I had it vetted and the stock bent when I got it, and this gun is all about practicality. I wouldn't have done those things to a 700, because they cost too much for what they are, which, is really just a generic boxlock, albeit, one made in England.
No problems with mine, Greg, but, like I said, I had it vetted. Did you do that with yours?


Best,
Ted

Hey Ted, well to be honest, I sold it to a friend of mine, and yes, he knew all about the problems, but didn't care. He still has it and it's a closet queen. He never shoots or hunts, but thought a SxS was cool. I used to money to buy a nice Gorosabel, which I later sold also.

Best!

Greg

Ted, I'll be darned if I can recall a flood of Spanish guns from the 40's. I do remember good deals on Spanish guns. . . but then some of them, like the Pride of Spain (aka POS--and it fits!), should have been cheap. But good ones also, like the Dickson Falcon. I found one of those pretty cheap a few years ago too.

How'd you identify those Spanish guns as being from the 40's? The Spanish started using date codes just about the same time proof became obligatory, back in the 20's. A Spanish double prior to 1955 will have a date code that's just a single letter. From 55 on, they added an asterisk plus a number. A*1 is 1955, etc. I can't recall looking at any Spanish guns with a single letter date code. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I always check stuff like that if a gun really catches my interest.

Uggies tend to be pretty solid guns. So are the V. Sarasquetas--most of the ones we see in this country being older Stoeger imports. (Even nicer ones aren't Stoeger imports.) But you can also run into unexpected problems with Spanish guns that cost several thousand dollars, like my friend's Arrieta 2" that broke strikers. So good thing it had bushed strikers. But good ones, cheap . . . not so much any more. As Kyrie's gunbroker collection establishes. Take a look, Ted. Anything there you'd buy for $400? Or even $700?

I have seen many of these 400-600 used Spanish boxlocks, and thats about all they were ever worth.

These seen to all have about the same issues:
The polishing on the barrels was done with about 220 grit and then blued. The checkering looks like it was done by blind monkeys. The barrels are wavy. The chambers can be rough from poor polishing. The wood is, well what can I say. The trigger pulls can be off the map.They are just rough guns. Are there exceptions to the rule, yes. Do they go bang, yes. If all you ever wanted in life was a 500 shotgun, then go for it. (Like the $4000 911 Targa) My grandmother said "I would rather a little of something good that alot of something not so good".

John
Quality Arms

PS: I had a very good friend who passed, he would buy anything if was cheap enough. Anything that I just could not get rid of I would put in a pile and when he came to town, knowing he would buy it if I priced it cheap. I swear that he would buy a tird on a stick if was cheap.

Larry,
As I recall, it was easy to spot a recent Spanish import, after the tax went on them, in Spain. I identified them the same way you would-date code on the flats. The guns I remember looked used, hard used, and had a modern laser dot importers mark burned into the tubes. They drove the price of guns that were here, down, for a year or two. I freely admit I knew nothing about the tax in Spain at the time, and just bought an Uggy that was priced to compete with the stuff being dumped, here.
I only took second looks at Uggies, but, there were others, with names that didn't mean anything to me. From what I saw, I'd say Kyrie was right on about the maintenance Spanish guns receive at home. Looked like the guns were forgotton about after they were put away and cocktail hour began.
There are two model 30s on gunbroker I'd consider today, one just got a bid at $550, and the other has been lingering a long time at $600. That gun is in MN, and if I were in the market, I could take a drive and work something out, face to face, maybe, and save a few bucks. These guns don't have the American Arms "Falcon" extras, 3" proof, hidden third fastener, engraved receiver, but, that is no big deal. If they don't have disc set strikers, I wouldn't buy either, but, I bet they do. The model 30 has been around a long time, Larry, and when I see a Spanish gun for sale locally, it is usually one of them. The fact that a few individuals have had a problem or two with them surprises me no more than a few people having had problems with Red Labels.
Having something really nice is great, but, I've been on hunting trips where we ride in a canoe to get to the other side of the slew we worked up to, often with a Lab or some other pooch in the boat with us. Not condusive to bringing a really nice, or, expensive gun along.
John, the checkering on my Falcon, and also on Keith's, is better than what I have seen on some more recent Grulla and AYA guns. I think both of our guns are early 1970s vintage. The triggers are great. I think mine has bead blasted and black chromed barrels, not sure it is blue. There might be a ripple or two in the barrels, and there might not be.
I doubt the Lab in the canoe cares.


Best,
Ted

Oh boy, looks like John is going to be on someones S list! But he's right. A lot of the imports are pure junk and not worth giving a second look. Ted hit it with the laser engraved import marks. Most of them are on the bbls or even the frame. Can't understand why they didn't mark them under the bbls so the forend would hide them. Oh well.

Best,

Greg

Ted--You found a number of Spanish imports with a pre-1955 (single letter) date code? Surprises me. You're younger than I am, and there have been Spanish guns of all kinds showing up since at least the early 60's. But I can't recall looking at any with the pre-55 date code. I'm sure there are some around, but that flood of Spanish imports didn't occur until the 60's at the earliest. Maybe even a bit later.

To each his own, but if I'm looking for something to beat around, I'll look for either an Ithaca SKB Model 100, which isn't far off from Uggie 30 money especially in 12ga, or a Miroku Daly. Saw one of the latter at a recent gun show, good shape, 12ga, asking price $600. You'll look long and hard to find a Spanish 12 for the same money that I'd rate as good as a Miroku Daly. I would have snapped that one up, but I have an Ithaca SKB 150 that pretty much takes care of my needs for a not so nice 12ga.