doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A Brace of Featherweight Prussian Daly/Lindners

OK, guys. My statement was that practice with heavy or light guns will make you free. Stan backed me up. Others came in and said that eye problems and other deformities will prevent you from becoming proficient with guns that don't meet your weight specifications. OK, Stan knows me, has shot with me, and knows I am right handed and can't see out of my right eye. He may not know that I am darn near paralyzed on my right side, have had two hip transplants, a titanium plate in my neck, have had back surgery, and will be 70 in October. I will not quit shooting in competition, have bought or built seven full crossover guns, still shoot NSCA when I can, NSSA, pigeons, and the Parker-L.C.Smith Challenge, although is has been a few years since I made the Parker Team. Yes, I made the Parker Team with a crossover gun. I have also shot 100 straights in NSSA with off eye guns. My crossover guns range from 6 pounds, 4 ounces to 10 pounds plus. I like shooting them regardless of the weight. Thank you, Stan, my friend, for standing up for those who "man up" with a shotgun instead of missing and complaining.

There are millions of people that think like you, Ted. "If I can't do it, it must be impossible for anyone else". Those are the people who never reach their full potential, because they're limited, not necessarily by physical constraints, but by mental ones. "It's the gun's fault, it's too light, these shells are too light, or too heavy", etc. There are a lot more Digweeds out there than you will ever know, Ted. They just have to work a regular job for a living and can't shoot 60,000 rounds a year at clays and birds, so they can never fulfill their potential. Digweed is good, mighty good, but he can't walk on water.

My Dad would get furious when he heard me say as a kid, "I can't". His reply was always "Can't never could", and I might add, never will.

SRH

Mike, you and Bill and Stan and John are making way too much of Ted's remark. I believe you all speak from the perspective of the maybe one-half of one percent -- extremely committed, highly skilled, super competitive and successful competition shooters. And your opinion is this semantic discussion about the word "tough" -- based on experience with god knows how many rounds fired per year both in practice and competition -- doesn't make sense in my world of shooting.

I love bird hunting and shoot enough targets to make most of the shots offered over my springers. I'm pretty consistent about leaving alone the shots I'm not likely to make. There's not much in my life I enjoy more than bird hunting, but there's a whole lot I enjoy more than shooting targets. I hope you don't think that disqualifies me from judging whether Ted's use of the word "tough" here is appropriate?

With all due respect to you guys, I think you've got the context wrong. You're way beyond the experience of any gun being "tough to shoot". The term itself doesn't fit your experience with any well made, well balanced gun -- like Pete's Linders. (Pete, I've been hanging around this thread only because I'm waiting for pics -- where are they??!)

Ted's statement isn't a bit wrong. From my perspective, there's more truth in it than in Mike's quoted above. I'm not going to elaborateg on why I think it so, but there are lots of guy who "know how to shoot" (my definition may differ from yours) who'll find it much "tougher" to shoot a gun that weighs 5-1/2 lbs. than one that weighs 6-1/2 or more. You guys seem to me off on a tangent about practice. Taking and judging the statement as offered, the question of whether or not practice will make shooting light guns "not tough" is beside the point.

Jay

Wow Stan ... Ted said nothing like this, and nothing that could be reasonably taken to suggest he thinks anything like this.

So, Jay, you think I am going to far in thinking that, because of Ted's initial statement, he doesn't shoot light guns well?

I will admit that "impossible" is not the same as "tough". But, do you disagree that Ted's statement was a bit too "all encompassing"? "Tough", as he used it, means tough for everybody. He did not specify "tough" for certain handicapped people. Had he said that I would never have disagreed. I will rescind my statement that "anybody can do the same". There may be exceptions, but lack of willingness does not qualify in my book.

SRH

Charlie Ted didn't say "If you have been shooting an 8 pound LC Smith 12 gauge with 32" barrels it may be tough for you to go to those six pound Lindner Dalys". He made a blanket statement that it is "Tough to shoot guns that come in that light", so no matter your circumstances, my circumstances, Pete's circumstances, Stan's circumstances, Murphy's circumstances or anybody's circumstances, guns that light are tough to shoot. Bull.

I know people that shoot in the 1% and I am not one of them. But I know if I am changing guns and I want to shoot well I need to go out and practice with the "new" gun. I shoot some competitive trap (not very competitively) but I am committed bird hunter (behind pointing dogs). My current trap gun is a Parker 12 ga. on a 3 frame with 34" barrels, weighs 9lbs 6oz. I am not arguing against heavy guns. The last day I hunted birds this season I carried a 5-3/4 pound gun with 26" barrels. Two seasons ago I carried an 8 pound Parker VH 12 ga. for four weeks while I was bird hunting in Montana. I do object to statements (not opinions) that light guns are tough for everybody to shoot. Rather than type again what I typed in my previous post I just state that I stand by my previous post.

I get irritated at Ted and Larry because it seems to me that every time a classic bobwhite gun pops up for discussion or even in the for sale section they will post something like "Too bad it has 3" of drop and/or that it is so light." I suppose if they got in a 1963 Corvette split window coupe one of them would say to the other "Too bad this has a manual four speed instead of the automatic 8 speed transmission with the paddle shifter on the steering wheel.

Pete just got, by any measure, a pair of very desirable bird guns. Ted pissed on his find for no good reason. And Ted didn't say that he had a tough time shooting light guns, he made a statement that for everybody it is "Tough to shoot guns that light". So all six pound guns are hard to shoot well, stated as fact by Ted. And all 3" drop bird guns are hard to shoot well according to Ted and Larry. But if Ted would take some time and practice with those guns he would be able to shoot them on birds almost as well as he shoots his favorite configuration. And then perhaps he would not feel the need to warn everybody that it is "Tough to shoot guns that light".

I don't agree at all with how you guys are interpreting "tough to shoot". Seems to me you're working pretty hard to find something significant in an off-the-cuff remark that on it's face means no more to me than "more difficult to shoot" than a gun that weighs noticeably more. Simple statement, and I think in the experience of most shooters, it's simply true. The words themselves just don't support the take that he meant "for everyone".

Much ado about nothing very little.

Jay

Interesting that you feel that way, Jay. What do you base your opinion on? In my realm of shooting and rubbing shoulders with shooters I have not found that to be the case. I think it's just another excuse.

Rocketman has proven that handling dynamics is far more important than weight. Where the weight is located on the gun can make a 5# gun have very close to the same handling characteristics as another 7# gun. Again, where the mass is located on the gun means far more than weight itself. For example, he spun my 4.8# Yildiz .410, that I pictured with the doves, and told me that it had almost the exact same handling characteristics as the classic 12 ga. English game gun, which would come in around 6 to 6.5#.

SRH

Charlie read the words, not the part between them.

Ted could have written "It is tough for me to shoot guns that come in that light." As he wrote it it was a blanket indictment of light guns. That is what he actually wrote means. And I believe that is how he meant it.

I'm reading the words Mike. Not adding "for everyone", because I don't think that's what was meant. Indictment? Way too serious a word! I've been at odds with Ted more than a few times over the years, but I just don't see nefarious intent here.

Stan, we just have different experience. Most of my time spent with shotguns and shooting men involves pheasant hunting and waterfowl, and moderate weight guns. Some but not as much ruffed grouse hunting. For me and these guys, it's not easy to switch from the weight of guns we shoot often to a much lighter gun, and shooting a much lighter gun well isn't important enough to us to practice with a gun we won't shoot. Better to practice with what we use, don't you think? So, since it would require special effort to learn to shoot a light gun well, I could see myself saying just as Ted did, in what I took as a casual comment, that's it's tough to shoot guns that light. And I wouldn't mean tough for everyone.

Jay