doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Choke confusion on a Model 21

Yes, it is silly, but I agree there is some reality. For the Model 21 collector, originality is almost everything. However, to shoot birds (grouse or quail) or clays, a M/F gun would be far from ideal for me. Personally, I wouldn't muck with the chokes myself on a 21. But if I found a nice gun already opened up, it wouldn't kill the deal for me. And being honest, I would try to beat them up on the price a little too (& have).

My one and only 21 came to me as a field grade with a short, non-original buttstock, choked M/F -- which is far from ideal for my shooting too. I wanted to experience the "magic" of WS1 and WS2 described by our old pal Don Moody and went to Galazan's for this -- along with re-stocking. When the work was done they sent a letter updating the Cody records for this gun. I neither know nor care what a collector might think of this.

Jay

Jay, I miss Don Moody ('ole cowboy) too. And you can bet the farm, he'd be piping in on this thread, for sure.

It only takes a very small mistake in working on a WS1 choke to make the barrels worthless. There just isn't much metal to work with.

You know what Don would say,
"Just shoot them as is".

I second Mr. Murphey's statement in Spades....Precious little metal to tamper with there at the front in WS-1 barrels regardless of gauge.....

As to the original poster's question, I concur with previous answers that the gun is well within the acknowledged range of constrictions as recorded in multiple references......

Years ago I was similarly perplexed by the smaller amounts of constriction in Winchester chokes , especially those stamped MOD and IMP MOD

The Winchester's use of .015 - .018 as IM for a 12 gauge gun was a far cry from the .026 - .030 used by FN and Remington during the same time frame, for the same choke designation...

In the same vein the 12 ga. Winchester designation of MOD using constriction ranging from .010-.015 fell far short of the .018 Remington listed and even farther from the frequently encountered ** FN with .020+ for MOD.

All part of the learning curve for those of us who do care to know more about about the tools we use afield

On Sat measured a prewar 16 M12 stamped mod. Bore 0.667, choke section 0.660. Both numbers within specs (Schwing table). Net 0.007. Owned a 20 ga "mod", also .007 net. Neither of these two had been altered.

Re skeet chokes . . . Back in "the day", doubles made for skeet shooting were often choked "skeet out" and "skeet in". That should be equivalent, more or less I think, to WS2 for out and WS1 for in. On skeet doubles, to get maximum advantage from your gun's chokes, you want to use the tighter barrel on the first (outgoing) bird; the more open barrel on the 2nd (incoming) bird of the pair. Not hard to do with either double triggers or a single selective. Just reverse the normal firing order. But IMO, with standard skeet loads, if you're breaking your targets in the middle of the field, you don't really need any choke at all--at least not if you're shooting at least 3/4 oz shot. .410 is a different story. But to return to my point: If you own one of those Winchester 21's that's WS 1 & 2, you want to use 2 first on doubles. Also on the first bird of your pairs of singles from stations 1-3, if you're loading both barrels for singles rather than shooting WS1 at both of them. Some people may not think about that. But the gun is set up for skeet . . . if you use it correctly.

I had the chance to meet and shoot with Don once. I did enjoy giving him a bad time about the chokes on 28ga Parker Repros. If you want to talk about a gun that was well outside of Winchester specs . . . those Japanese at the Olin-Kodensha factory must have been looking at the 12ga chart when they choked the 28" barrels on 28ga Repros. M/F fit nicely within 12ga specs, but WAY too tight for 28ga specs. Don didn't like the idea of changing them. But as a grouse and woodcock hunter, I had no time for 12ga M/F specs in a 28ga gun. Matter of fact, had one set of 28ga Repro barrels opened to .005/.010. Used that gun on a preserve pheasant hunt, killed 27 roosters straight including a couple doubles. Preserve pheasants aren't particularly difficult, but I wouldn't want to put any money on myself were I to attempt to repeat it.

Larry, the beautiful thing about skeet targets is that once you assume the position and call or grunt or whistle or pass wind the targets are yours to do with as you please.

If you want to use a WS-2 for outgoing targets, go right ahead.

Actually, the best way to use a WS-2 on doubles is to shoot the pair backwards. The pitfall there is that while you're shooting the second target chips from the first might clobber up your nice Winchester stock or even create a Heidelberg scar... speaking of which...

Anybody ever see a guy get whacked in the back of the head by a thrown broken low house target while shooting a double from 8? Once you're finished with the initial check for blood and everyone has had a chance to fake their concern, it's really funny.

Did they make any WS-1/WS-1 guns? That would have been the ticket for 1947 instead of the A-5 with the Cutts spreader tube.

Unfortunately, Jones--if you're shooting competitive skeet--you don't have the option of shooting pairs backwards. And those guns were set up to shoot competitive skeet, which was the big, up and coming target game back then. Turns out they also work out very well for upland hunting.