doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1/2oz smokeless .410 recipes?

It may well be noted the .410 plastic wads I have (Rem PP) do not have a cushion section as built. They are simply a cup wad & shot cup combined into one piece. Some "Very Old" data I have for paper cases with card & filler wads called for 7 grains "Infallable" powder with 3/8 oz shot for the .410. Infallible & Unique have been stated to be identical powders. .410 cases of this era also used a milder primer than the larger gauges I believe. I "Am Not" recommending this as a load, only stating some old loads.

Thanks again to all here-

I'll look into that Unique possibility, thinner cards sound good too.
I was thinking the felt wad might have had some value as cushion, but really, a modern 'petal' shot cup might be just the trick as a replacement for the overpowder card and felt wadding -- might take less space, and will likely do more good to patterns than whatever cushion I'd get from 1/4" felt...


--Tinker

Note that "No" modern load data to my knowledge lists Unique loads for the .410. Also none to my knowledge lists loads for 3/8oz, but then I don't load for the .410. I have loaded shot loads using Unique with about 3/8oz of shot for a .45 colt using cut to cylinder length .444 Marlin brass.

Tinker, ask/pay BPI for the "410 update" sheets. I have them and they could be of some use to you as they have some 2.5" 3/8 oz stuff listed....but it is all over the board and has me at a loss to even guess what would be doable in the 2".

Best,
Mark

Tinker, I don't think that the change from 1/2 ounce to 3/8 ounce is enough to change your powder burn rate sufficiently to require a powder as fast as Unique. Personally, I would stick with the 2400 or 296 until the sound of the report indicates a low pressure situation. Unique is more than one step up in burning rate from the classic 410 powders. Unique isn't going to blow up the gun, but its greater pressure and faster burn rate shouldn't be neccesary for acceptable performance. Try the slightly reduced charges of classic 410 powders before switching.

Note that in proportion to bore capacity the ½oz .410 load has an equivelent load density to a 1 9/16oz load in a 12ga. A 3/8oz .410 charge has a LD equal to a 1 3/16oz 12ga laod. Thus changing the .410 by 1/8oz is equivelent to changing the 12ga by 3/8oz. We would certainly expect to change powders if making a 3/8oz shot change in a 12ga. I did not & Do not recommend anyone load untested loads. Also as noted in the days that data was given the .410 cases were loaded with milder primers, which to the best of my knowledge do not exist today. In the days though when a 3/8oz charge was considered about Max in the .410 it was loaded with ordinary shotgun powders. The speciality powders, which in reality are fast rifle powders (2400 was standard for the .22 Hornet) were introduced to the .410 for the purpose of "Magnumization". Note that in proportion to all regular gauges even the ½oz load in the .410 is of magnum proportion. "IF" pressure tested data were available Unique should certainly not be out of range for a max of 3/8oz in the .410.
Again, though I am not recommending pivate load experimentation without pressure testing equipment, just mentioned it for historical reference.

Miller, the statement you made about 2400 being a "fast rifle powder" is quite misleading. It is a very slow shotgun powder, shotgun powders being what we are discussing. Unique is much faster than 2400 (resulting in higher pressure) and a veiled recommendation to change to such a powder for use in a black powder era .410 is not proper. Since normal .410 target loads run in the range of 10,000 to 12,000 pressure range with 1/2 ounce of shot, I see no reason not to use the classic .410 powders in a reduced shot load recipe as long as performance remains adequate. If pressure slips below good performance levels, the report will clue the shooter in to the bad performance. At least the gun will still be intact.

#2400 powder was introduced by Hercules in 1933 as a replacement for their old SR80 (Sporting rifle). It was at that time used for small capacity rifles such as the Hornet & .218 Bee. That was it's purpose of introduction, so it "WAS" in fact a fast rifle powder. Elmer Keith soon began to use it for heavy .44 special revolver loads. A Lyman handbook dated 1950 shows loads for the .410 of Hercules "Red Dot", "Infallible" & "Herco" and Dupont "Oval" (No 2400 loads are given at this time). By the late 50's they listed loads only for 2400 but nothing lighter than ½oz & this became the standard powder for loading both ½ & 3/4oz .410 loads for a number of years. I believe though, it would be "Entirely Accurate" to say the "Classical .410" was loaded with from 5/16-3/8oz of shot & with regular shotgun propellants. The use of the fast rifle powders such as Hercules 2400 & Dupont 4227 came later with it's Magnumization. The only thing that might even allow a powder as slow as 2400 to even work with a charge as light as 3/8oz is the fact the charge would be so small it could obtain complete ignition from the primer designed to light a full 12ga charge. Otherwise it likely would "Fizzle".

Note that technically speaking there is no such thing as "Rifle Powder", "Pistol powder" or "Shotgun Powder". They are all simply smokeless propellant powders, but their main use is determined by their burning characteristics. Recent Alliant Reloaders guides list their powders & give "Principal Use" & then "Can Also Be Used In". I note that the lack of interest in such rifle calibers as the Hornet & Bee has caused a shift in "Principal Use" for 2400 from "Light Rifle" to "Magnum Handgun". "Can Also Be Used In" states "Some Rifle & Shotshell Loads". As well as the .410 it is also listed in a 1240fps 1¼oz load in the 3" 20ga & 12ga "Heavy" 3" buckshot & one 1525 fps 1oz Brenneke slug load. These loads are all in the 9k+ psi range with the ½oz 2½" .410 loads being in the 11-12K range & the 3" 11/16oz loads going 12-13K. I highly suspect any 2400 loads falling much below 9K psi would be asking for problems with squibs & such.

Miller, all I was saying was that if the 2400 didn't work up to the pressure, sound, and performance level with a reduced shot load, your recommendation of Unique is not a proper recommendation because there are at least two Hercules powders between 2400 and Unique that would be better choices because they are progrssively faster burn rates than 2400, but not as fast as Unique. Unique is at least three steps up in burn rate and potential pressure level from 2400 and shouldn't be the first choice to replace 2400 when used in a black powder era .410 shotgun. Your anecdotes about early day usage of these powders and various uses in loads unrelated to the light .410 are very entertaining, but not too pertinent to the situation at hand. Your last sentence makes me wonder how you know that a 3/8 ounce .410 load propelled with a slightly reduced (under standard 1/2 ounce target load) of 2400 would fall below 9000 psi? In my opinion, such a load would probably be just fine and would have a pressure of maybe 9500 to 10000 psi. I, personally, would try it before switching to a powder three levels faster, especially in an older black powder era gun.