doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need help with ID and possible value

Posting this for a friend:

It appears to be German built/sold LeFaucheux actioned gun with back action locks, and laminated barrels. It was, when new, a fairly high Original Quality grade gun. Brand Value would run low as Lustmann is not a well known name. Current Condition doesn't appear to be very good at this time.

So lets make the following assumptions pending more information. BV is level five (BV5 = unknown Continental maker). OQ is grade five (OQ5 = very good quality hammergun and top quality BLE). Current Condition is level eight (CC8 = marginaly shootable, requires extensive repairs).

BV5-OQ5-CC* = $150.

DDA

For sure, F. Lustmann Sohn of Wolfenb�ttel was a county gunsmith or firearms merchant & had his wares made elsewhere. B�chsenmacher Wilhelm Lustmann Wilhelm, Breite Herzogstra�e 26, Wolfenb�ttel was at this location till at least 1896. I have not seen a fella with the 1st name beginning with a F. Wilhelm Lustmann hung out his gunmaking shingle mid 19th Century or cira 1850 & it appears his wife carried the business for a time.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ah hah. F. was not for a fella but for Wilhelm's wife Frieda Lustmann. I'm highly confident that it what the F stands for but this would seem most odd as typically one sees Witwe. She must have placed an order with a maker and he inadvertently applied her initial. Also the ampersand is absent. Seems the concern weathered the storm for at least 75 years.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

OK, like Vda. (viuda=widow) on some Spanish guns. Would the F be for Frau or was it her initial?...Geo

Nah, Not Frau as I don't recall H for Herr. As far as I've noted, all single letters are initials for names.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Current condition really isn't that bad other than some wear on the finish where the gun has been carried. There is no pitting in the barrels and the gun is very, very tight. I appreciate the background information on the Lustmanns. Can anyone direct me to a site where I can find more information on the gunsmith. Was really hoping the value was a little more than $150 though.

Thanks,

DW

It would be beautiful once restored.The barrels have wonderful pattern.
Once the oil is removed from the stock and the finish restored it would look great. Imagine what the metal would look like if it had case colors.

Regards

Ken

You are already at the site. The actual gunsmith was in Suhl or Zella-Mehlis & it is possible he applied his mark to the underside of the tubeset or the water table. Frieda Lustmann more than likely a firearms merchant. But there were women in the gun trade/manufacture.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hello Dawed
Welcome on your first posting.
Mike

That is perfectly OK. We all hope our guns are worth more just as those of us hoping to purchase hope they are worth less, at least at the time of purchase. Note that I made an assumption as to the guns CC based solely on a few photos. Your description adds a good bit. So, lets put up several possibilities and you can tell us which you think fits best. CC4 = Heavy use, but no abuse, CC5 = Minor repairs needed or proper restoration accomplished, CC6 = Shootable but needs some repairs and refinishing or refinished with barrels or stock replaced, CC7 = Shootable but needs expensive repairs or restored with stock and barrels replaced. BV5-OQ5-CC4 = $600, BV5-OQ5-CC5 = $450, BV5-OQ5-CC6 = $335, BV5-OQ5-CC7 = $230. One of the problems of valuation for such guns is a paucity comparables. The foregoing said, I hope some of the readers will chime in with values and their logic as to the numbers. Strictly speaking, this gun fall outside the above valuation system, but it is interesting to see how close it comes or how far off it is.

DDA

Let me add a little more info and then I'll take a shot at what fits best. The barrels are 29 1/2 inches. A 3-inch 12 gauge shell seems to fit and the gun closes on it. The engraving on the sides include what appears to be pheasants (long tail) on one side and maybe quail (short tail) on the other side. There is also engraving on the trigger guard that appears to be a deer.The gun is very tight when closed.

Rocketman, I'm not a collector and not familiar with your formula. I would say the gun has been used but has no abuse, just normal little nicks and dings that one would associate with carrying it afield. Someone suggested restoration which is something I might want to explore. However, I'm reminded of an old antique bed I paid to have restored one time and was told later it would have been worth more had I not had it restored and after the fact, I was not able to sell the piece to even cover the cost of restoration.

This gun falls into the same category. You'll never recoup the cost of the restoration. I only suggested it if you intend to keep it, rather than try to sell it. The overall surface rust, the barrel pattern condition, as well as the condition of the wood really knocks down its current value for most people.

Ken

Please do note the fact that a 3" shell will go in the chamber & the gun close & bolt does not mean it is chambered for a shell of that length. The length of a shotshell is determined by its total,"Uncrimped" length. A 3" shell with a fold crimp will enter the chamber of most 2�" chambered guns & the gun close & bolt, but they "Should Not" actually be fired in them.
As to value I will just say I would much rather pay $150.00 for this gun than to sell it for that if it were mine.

Dawed, the issue I see is that in times past someone damaged the screw slots by using a very poor fitting screw driver. This is often a clue that other sub-standard work was performed inside. Hopefully, the only thing that happened was Fumb leFingers satisfied his curiosity. My formula has proven reasonably reliable to get you in the ball park.

Per 2-p above, plEEEEase don't fire a 3" shell in it. Take it to a qualified smith and have it inspected as suitable for firing. And, for pete's sake don't take it behind the barn, strap it to a tire, and pull the trigger on a modern high pressure load with a good long string (method sometimes refered to as "Firestone Proof"). Chamber length is far less important than load pressure - you want loads of KNOWN low pressure. Don't shoot anything until it gets a clean bill of health from a good smith.

2-p thinks it is over $150. Anyone else?

DDA

My view is that it , with good barrels, is worth 2-3 times the $150 estimate.

We do not have all the facts just yet. What if along the gold bands the tubes are by L�opold Bernard Canonnier � Paris? Or possibly a set by V. Chr. Schilling?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thank you, DH. Your estimate would place its Current Condition between the two descriptions below. In terms of reverse engineering, do you think the gun and CC descriptions match?

CC5 = Minor repairs needed, CC6 = Shootable but needs some repairs

DDA

I said I'm not a collector - didn't mean I was without some knowledge of gun safety, having hunted with gun and bow for over 55 years and worked as a freelance outdoor writer. Anyways, I don't mean to be unappreciative of your concerns, so thanks.
Rest assured, I do not intend to fire the gun under any circumstances even if it were deemed safe to do so. The 3 inch shell was just used as a reference.

There are two small proof marks (not sure this is correct term) on the side of each barrel toward the rear. Also, the number 106 or 108 is stamped just below the barrels when the gun is broken down.

So I'd guess it is not ole Bernard. Maybe British proof? Either post an image or forward one to me & I'll gladly post it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Rocketman, the gun appears shootable , given the only descriptions we have. I'm not sure on your CC5 and CC6 what those really mean. Minor Repairs needed ? for what purpose ? Is it minor repairs to be able to shoot it, or just for looks ? Same with Shootable, but needs some repairs. I'm not sure what function repairs are needed in CC6 if the gun is shootable, or why a shootable gun "needs" minor repairs of some sort. From what I see in the above posts, the gun is tight, good bores, etc. We do not know the real barrel condition such as wall thickness, etc. If the gun were functionally sound with screws fixed, wood hiccups taken care etc. I think the gun would be worth a grand or so.

It would be worth more as wall art at a Cracker Barrel than as a shooter. I'd say three to four hundred tops.



It would never be worth the cost.

I'd rate it JACBG...(Just another Cracker Barrel Gun).

Nice example of European horn work for sure....it would make a nice table lamp.

Affix the but to a base standing vertical...chop the barrels to about ten inches figure out how to mount the shade base/light socket to the top of the barrels...get the electrical wiring up the back or better yet up through the gun. Rub on some linseed oil and enjoy.

Meh,

It's a little too nice for a "Lamp Gun". But, due to it's current condition, it's not the hoped for "Gold Mine". The market for these poor condition German underlever back-action guns is fairly low, but not low enough to destroy them. Belgian JABC's are more suitable for "lamp art"...

It's really the perfect "Project Gun", it would be a really nice "Vintage Shooter". Unfortunately the cost of having someone else restore it would be fairly extensive..

Ken

The gun could be made to look very nice with a simple and inexpensive freshening up. If it were mine I'd take it all apart, soak the finish off the wood with acetone, clean the checkering with an old toothbrush and refinish the wood with Tru-oil. As for the metal parts, they could be cleaned up with 0000 steel wool. I'd have to give some thought to refinishing the barrels, probably I'd just clean them up with steel wool and leave them as is. After it was cleaned, lubricated and assuming that it locked up tight and the barrel wall thickness was adequate I'd shoot it for sure using the proper low-pressure loads.

Steve

If it does turn into a project gun, please, NO POWER BUFFING.......

I agree with Rocdoc, this old gun has "fought the wars" and has given someone good service. It should be treated with the respect it deserves.
Mike

enough with the bloatfarting, best you just be done with it...I will give you the estimated $150 for it, plus 50 for top notch shipping and will take on the burden of cleaning and shooting this antiquated monstrosity.....

you are welcome, Dave

Best to list it on the "For Sale" forum if you're interested in selling it..

As a table lamp it would bring more...

Wanna buy one?

Crown over V - Vorrat - on-hand in early 1893.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The barrels are a Bernard variant, which most everyone in Liege and Ferlach were making
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...iP3FP0fXb0/edit

There may be some marks to indicate, but it is possible that they were sourced from Ferlach but a Liege sourcing has a much higher probability.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse