doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Turn-of-the-century load recommendations

A later A.H. Fox Gun Co. hang-tag for a Sterlingworth with 26-inch barrels of 1916 vintage gives a load of 3 1/8 drams of smokeless powder and 1 1/4 ounce of #7 1/2. That tag only has Cyl and Full written in, not the actual pellet count.

The earliest A.H. Fox Gun Co. hang tag I've seen is of late 1905 or early 1906 vintage when they were still at Wayne & Bristol Streets. It shows the 3 drams of smokeless powder and 1 1/8 ounce of #8 chilled load being used to target the gun.

Drew, do you have any info on 8ga loads ? Thanks - Paul

Paul: The load for 8g Parker Lifters (1874-1910) with 34" barrels weighing 12-13# was 2 oz. shot with 6 - 6 1/2 Drams Black Powder. I don't have any smokeless load recommendations.

Could someone please look in Walt's Ithaca book and see if he shows any c. 1900 load recommendations?

I was looking for nitro, but thanks anyways - Paul

Here's what we've got so far, and thanks to those who contributed!

A L.C. Smith Syracuse hang tag from 1887 states the 12g gun had been patterned at 35 yds. using a 24� circle with 3 Drachms powder with 1 1/4 oz. No. 8 shot.
After about 1912 the 12g guns (unless otherwise requested by the purchaser) were patterned at 40 yds. using a 30� circle with 3 Drams and 1 1/4 oz. Tatham�s chilled No. 7 1/2 shot (431 pellets in the load). Black Powder or Bulk Smokeless were not specified.

From Remington hang tags, until at least 1899, guns were targeted with a black powder load of 3 1/2 Drachms F.G. Powder with 1 1/4 ounce of #8 chilled shot.
A 1908 hang tag for a 12g Remington Hammerless states that the gun was targeted with 24 grains ( 3 1/4 Dram Eq.) of Infallible in a 2 5/8 inch UMC Nitro Club shell with 1 1/4 ounce of #8 chilled shot. The maximum recommended 12 gauge loads were 3 1/4 Drams of Bulk Smokeless or 26 grains ( 3 1/2 Dram Eq.) of Infallible or Ballistite Dense smokeless powders. (Courtesy of David Noreen)

A 1900 Parker hang tag states that 12g 2 5/8� chambered guns were patterned at 40 yds. in a 30� circle using 2 3/4� shells with 1 1/8 oz. No. 7 chilled shot and 40 grains (3 1/4 Dram) of DuPont Bulk smokeless powder.

1904-05 Baker Gun & Forging Co. �Baker Gun Quarterly� state that guns were patterned with No. 8 shot in a 24" circle at 35 yds. but do not specify the load.

Flues era Ithaca Gun Co. 12g �Lightning Lock� hang tags state the guns were patterned with No. 8 chilled shot in a 24� circle at 35 yds using 3 Dram �New Schultze� Smokeless powder and 1 1/8 oz. shot.


All of the makers advertised their guns with Pattern Welded barrels as "For Nitro Powder"







The 1933 edition of �Smokeless Shotgun Powders� by Wallace Coxe and E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. reported the LUP pressure for 1 1/4 oz. 3 Dram Eq. of DuPont bulk smokeless at 9,600 psi which would be close to 10,500 by modern transducers.

I believe we have a pretty good answer to the question "What loads (and at what pressure) did the makers intend to be used?" which of course is not the same question as "What load should I (now) use?"

More here
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...fUOZEFU/preview

Interesting that the 10,500 psi figure is very close to the modern CIP service pressure of 10,730 psi for a "standard proof" (old 850 bar) gun.

Paul: p. 202-203 of Major Sir Gerald Burrard's 1947 Second Edition of The Modern Shotgun, Vol. III �The Gun and the Cartridge has an extensive table of loads. Unfortunately, he lists 33, 36, and 42 grain powders, along with Ballistite and BP. I ASSUME the 42 grain powder is Schultze Bulk (42 grains = 3 Dram), 36 grains is "New E.C. (Improved)" Bulk, and 33 grains is Imperial Chemical Industries (Eley & Kynoch Cartridges) Dense Smokeless Diamond powder.

He lists 10 different 8g loads. The 'standard velocity' 4" case uses 72 grains of the '42 grain powder' and 2 3/8 oz. shot, or 7 1/2 drams BP with 2 1/2 oz. shot.

I've revised this doc quite a bit for anyone with interest in Turn-of-the-Century Shotshells and Ballistics.
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...fUOZEFU/preview
Again, thanks to all who contributed, esp. Researcher who I hope to see again at the Las Vegas Antique Arms Show the end of Jan.

Finally cooling down here in the desert so Paradise Season has arrived, but it will be some time before the snakes have gone to ground, so nothing for me and the dog to do but jog, shoot out at Ben Avery, & look north and whine But it's another day closer to Mearns season

Last spring one of my interlocutors sent me some Pacific Northwest 1903 shoot reports from Seattle, WA, and Lewiston, ID, published in the January 1904 issue of Western Field. These reports included the guns and shells/loads used by the shooters. A few shooters used Winchester factory loads, but the great bulk of them used various Union Metallic Cartridge Co. NPEs - ACME, MAGIC, ARROW or Winchester LEADER NPEs that were loaded by local services -- Selby in San Francisco, CPW (California Powder Works?), Miller Bros. in Tacoma, Piper & Taft in Seattle, Hardy-Hall in Seattle, Honeyman Hardware location not given, and Ware Bros. in Spokane.

Comparative Loads from the Lefever Arms Co.
The Outdoorsman's Handbook, 1920
http://books.google.com/books?id=Lr1DAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA138&lpg