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burch #376908 09/03/14 01:33 PM
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Before Hunter Arms put proof marks on the barrels water table, they advertised that they proofed all their guns using double powder loads. I don't know if this practice continued into the 20's when they put the proof stamp on.


David


burch #376910 09/03/14 01:43 PM
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Wimps smile

Winchester 1897 in 1904 H.H. Kiffe catalog

"The barrel of this gun has been proved with 9 1/2 drams of powder, and 2 1/2 ounces of shot."



British Definitive Proof 1855-1925 12g (bore .710-.740) for a service load of 3 1/4 dram eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot was with 6 1/2 dram black powder with 1 11/16 oz. shot

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Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
From 1893 - 1895 Parker Brothers Gun Co., Remington Arms Co., and Hunter Arms Co. all began using some variant of “Bored For Nitro Powder” in company advertising, as eventually did other U.S. makers including Baker Gun & Forging Co., Ithaca Gun Co., J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co., Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., and Crescent Fire Arms Co.



Sears, Roebuck & Co. declared in 1907 that “Every gun we offer for sale (many of which had Pattern Welded barrels)...is made to stand any proper load of nitro or black powder...” and the “Our L.C. Smith Hammer Guns” listing included the statement “Choke bored for black or smokeless powder” and “NOTICE: All our guns are tested with heavy loads and cannot burst except by carelessness, obstruction in the barrel or improper home loaded shells with nitro or dense powder.”

“Our L.C. Smith Hammer Guns” in Sears, Roebuck & Co. 1907 Catalogue No. 116 courtesy of Gary Rennles



These statements of course apply only to loads for which the gun was originally intended. The standard 12 gauge loading listed on L.C. Smith hang tags from 1887 until about 1920 was for 1 1/4 ounce of shot with 3 Dram Equivalent of powder (1165 feet per second/fps). The 12g standard was changed to 1 1/8 oz. after about 1920. 16 gauge (introduced by Hunter Arms in 1896) was for 2 1/2 Dram with 1 oz. shot, and 20 gauge (introduced in 1907) was for 2 1/4 Dram with 7/8 oz. shot.

Nobel’s Explosive Co. Sporting Ballistite for shotgun shells was released to the trade in 1895, and 12 gauge 2 5/8" 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram Eq. (1200 fps) Dense Smokeless powder loads were reported to have a Lead Crusher Pressure of almost 3 Long Tons (UK) per square inch, which would be about 9,500 pounds per square inch (psi) if measured by modern piezoelectric transducers. Dupont or Schultze Bulk Smokeless were about 1000 psi less.

The maximum recommended 12 gauge load listed on 1908 Remington hang tags was for 1 1/4 oz. shot with 3 1/4 Drams (1220 fps) of Bulk Smokeless or 26 grains of Infallible or Ballistite Dense Smokeless. (Courtesy of David Noreen.)

Lots more infro, and c. 1900 American maker's ads here
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...ZhIiY62Hx4/edit
Hey Doc Drewbie- are you sure you aren't Tom Roster's "Doppelganger" Wow, what a shitload of technical data-- Gracias, cabron!@!!


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
burch #376931 09/03/14 05:47 PM
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Yes I realize that, but my question pertained to when they sanctioned their guns for the "New Express" loads which came into being in the 1920's with progressive powders & carrying heavier loads.
Lefever, Colt & Remington was out of business by then as was Baker except for late Folsom made ones. Ithaca dropped the weak framed Flues & introduced the stronger Nitro Special & then the NID. What changes were made by Fox, L C smith & Parker Brothers to accommodate the new heavier loaded shells or did their makers consider them already adequate?


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
burch #376932 09/03/14 06:15 PM
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Miller you bring up a very good question and one that I cannot answer. The only thing that I can say is that starting in 1912 when Hunter Arms changed the grades from a number to a noun (except the early Monograms) the barrels on most of these stayed with the same name, ie; Field-Armor Steel (pre 1912 OO Armor Steel), Ideal- London Steel, etc. What would make the earlier ones any weaker than the later ones, or vice-versa I don't know.

I think it is as you said, they new their guns could take it and time has proven that.
How many of these guns were handed down through the years and the new owners did not know what the chamber length was and didn't seem to care and just shot whatever they had out of them.


David


burch #376933 09/03/14 07:04 PM
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I believe that was the point of the LRWF



This is a HSB catalog page from 1923 with the same "designed to handle the heavy charges of modern propellant powders". Western Cartridge Co. introduced the 12g 'Super-X Field' 2 3/4 inch 1 1/4 oz. 3 3/4 dram equiv. shell and the 3 inch 'Record' with 1 3/8 oz. of shot in 1822.



The LRWF receiver has the same dimensions as the Regular frame but the 3" guns usually have the barrel reinforcing wedge.

It does appear that some effort was made in the 30s to remove less wood from the head of the stocks. Check the beginning here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17090409

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it does have a 5 digit number along with the FWS. I`ll use the wifes phone and take some pics.


God bless the fine men and women in the U.S. military
burch #376944 09/03/14 09:37 PM
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burch, that was my fault and I apologize, I put an extra x in there.


David


burch #376945 09/03/14 10:36 PM
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I'm not advocating anyone do as I have done, but back in the mid-80's I purchased a wreck of a 1903 vintage L.C. Smith 5E from Herschel Chaddick. The gun was less than honestly described, but had knock-out engraving; so I kept the piece and eventually had Buck Hamlin restore and re-stock the gun. It also had 32" tubes and was, at eight pounds, a little on the heavy side; so I had the chambers stretched to 3" (had more than adequate wall thickness) thinking the longer chambers might lessen chamber pressures a tad. At any rate I eventually shot a fair number of modern 3" mags thru those tubes and this old Smith gun digested those heavy loads without the slightest hint of heartburn (Buck has glassed the stock head). Again, I'm a lot older and "wiser" now, so would never do again, or recommend someone do some of the things I've done; but a solid "R" framed Smith gun is capable of much, much more than some might believe.

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no harm done


God bless the fine men and women in the U.S. military
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