doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 19th Century European Shotgun Sellers & Agents

I'm trying to develop a list of 1870-1915 importers and sellers of European shotguns, British, Belgian, and German primarily. I'm trying to focus on mid to higher grade guns, not your lower "Hardware Store" field grade types. If anyone has any input or can provide a reference I'd very much appreciate it.

I'll start with a few listings, I'm sure woefully lacking scope of inventory. I'm especially curious to know the sellers of the mid to higher grades of English shotguns. I realize that many will be "sellers" rather than the actual "makers", but that is fine, but reference to actual makers (if possible) would be great.

DS&G: Prussian guns, hammer and hammerless, marketed under the "Charles Daly" name.

VL&D (later A&F): German and Belgian guns, Sauer 1900 hammerless sidelock (model 1900) and later a Francotte boxlock, marketed under the "Knockabout" name.

Regards
Ken

Schoverling, Daly & Gales spanned the spectrum. August Schoverling & Henri Pieper were very chummy(they were the same age) and Schoverling personally handled Pieper's accounts/wares until say 1890 when he developed heart issues and had to distance himself from the work. Remember they both worked at Hermann Boker & Co.(50 Cliff Street) and Charles Daly was at Tufts & Colley(Walter Tufts, Jr. & Charles Gates Colley) at the same time as George W. Van Tine, who was a pillar at Hermann Boker & Company for say 20 years.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

VL&D had a nice line of Francotte Guns,from that Knockabout up through several lovely sideplated BLs,all I have see were VL&D.
Have seen soe nice Slocks too, but not in hand, not sure if they were VL&D.
All the few Francottes I;ve had were from 1904 thru 1930.I wonder when they started importing them?
Perhaps the earlier SD&G had them too.
There is a guy here , Bob Beach I think, he has access to some Francotte info, & has been very help full to others in the past.
Id stick up a seperate post for him, to make sure he sees it.
Good luck with your search for info,
I am a big fan of good Belgian Guns
cheers
Franc

Beach's Post:

"Abercrombie & Fitch was established in 1892 when David T. Abercrombie opened a sporting goods store under his own name in New York City. In 1900, a client by the name of Ezra H. Fitch, a practicing attorney and outdoor enthusiast, persuaded Mr. Abercrombie to allow him to become a partner in the store, and in 1904 the name of the store was changed to Abercrombie & Fitch. The two partners had differing ideas about marketing however, and in 1907 David Abercrombie resigned and went out on his own. Ezra Fitch is responsible for the unique sales strategy for the time, where the goal was to provide an environment in which clients could examine outdoor wares as they might actually be used and the sales staff was made up of practiced outdoorsmen. The store occupied several locations over the years and finally ended up at 45th and Madison Ave. in 1917.

Ezra Fitch retired in 1928 and the leadership as president of A&F passed on to James S. Cobb, the brother-in-law of Mr. Fitch. Otis Love Guernsey, a store employee, became vice-president.


Justus Von Lengerke, born in Germany, arrived in the United States at the age of 17 years in 1871. His father had had a sporting goods business in Oldenburg and that gave Justus a background for starting a similar business in America. He formed a partnership with Ernst Detmold and together they opened VL&D in New York City in 1882. Although the store was hugely successful, Justus Von Lengerke should be best appreciated for his contributions to the success of the smokeless powder industry in America. Justus acquired the United States Agency for smokeless powder and is said to have been the first man to fire off smokeless powder in the United States. He promoted the use of the powder through his participation at the many live pigeon shoots that he attended. By 1912, VL&D holdings had been consolidated into the Keystone Powder Co.

The VL&D sporting goods store made a major effort to import firearms from Europe and was as well known as a distributor of guns as they were a retailer. The brands that they imported included Francotte, JP Sauer, Greifelt, Mauser, Mannlicher-Schoenauer, Purdey, Holland & Holland, WW Greener, Woodward, Boss, Lang, Churchill, and GE Lewis.


Justus Von Lengerke also enabled his mother and all of his siblings to immigrate to the United States. One of his brothers was Oswald Von Lengerke, who with hunting companion, Charles Antoine, opened his own sporting goods store, known as Von Lengerke & Antoine, in Chicago in 1891. Although a separate entity from VL&D, the two stores cooperated in their similar ventures.

Griffin & Howe was established in 1923 when Seymour Griffin, James V. Howe, James L. Gerry, and Col. Townsend Whelen came together to create a business to manufacture and repair rifles and shotguns. James Howe stayed with the company only for four months. Ownership of G&H changed in 1929 -30 and the name was briefly changed to Griffin & Hobbs to reflect the new partnership, but that name change lasted only a few months.


When James S. Cobb took over the leadership of A&F in 1928, he decided to expand the business and by 1930 A&F had purchased VL&D, VL&A and G&H. The purchase of VL&D added a significant firearms inventory, the capability to import firearms from Europe, and the addition of several valuable staff, including and especially, George Henry Krug. Mr. Krug had been the vice-president of VL&D and was in charge of the VL&D gunroom. At A&F, he was given the management of the A&F gunroom and it is very likely that it was Mr. Krug who was responsible for the maintenance and preservation of the gun sales records that we have today.

The purchase of VL&A by A&F gave the store an important and reputable outlet in the Midwest and Von Lengerke & Antoine continued to operate under that name even after the acquisition.

The purchase of Griffin & Howe gave A&F the ability to manufacture and repair firearms �in house� although G&H continued to do business at its own location, with its own inventory and sales staff.

In the late 1950�s A&F began to expand further by opening stores in San Francisco, Short Hills, NJ, Palm Beach, Bal Harbor, Colorado Springs, Southampton, and Troy, MI.

However, the shopping preferences of the American public were in flux and A&F could not respond. In 1976 A&F filed for bankruptcy and finally closed its doors in 1977. G&H was purchased from the corporation and exists today under private ownership."

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=317844

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

William Read and Sons, 107 Washington Street, Boston. They were established in 1826. They listed guns from W.&C. Scott, Joseph Lang, James Purdey, W.W. Greener, A.H. Fox, and guns marked with their own name.

In the early days H.&D. Folsom handled fine guns

1890



1907



Wm. Read 1902



The 1906 William Read & Sons catalogue lists the following guns and prices: "Highest Quality" Wesley Richards with a single trigger for $595, W.W. Greener "Imperial" $500, W&C Scott "Premier" $375, Scott "Imperial Premier" was price on application, Purdey was given at 89 pounds 5 shillings sterling, and the "Highest Quality" sidelock ejector Joseph Lang & Son was 65 guineas.

1897 Sears Roebuck & Co. Catalogue
http://books.google.com/books?id=CSVIpqnFMTMC&pg=PA527&lpg

Daly
150AE............$129
250AE............$190
Greener
No. 3AE.............$187.50
Facile Priceps....$93.75
No. 6 Forester....$69.95

"The Panic of 1907" hit the U.S. economy hard.
A credit crisis similar to that of 2008-2009 occurred in 1907. Strains in the financial system started to appear in 1906 when American industry and railroads found it increasingly difficult to obtain credit from Europe, previously a large source of capital flow into the US. Liquidity became increasingly tight through 1907 and on October 23 panic occurred when New York�s third largest trust, the Knickerbocker Trust Company, collapsed related to an attempt by then president Charles T. Barney and Otto Heinze to corner the copper market. Banks began to fail when depositors at other trusts sought to withdraw their money and other banks in New York were forced to retract loans. Lending ceased and the credit crisis spread world wide. Were it not for the intervention of J.P. Morgan, and President Theodore Roosevelt�s agreement to set aside the Sherman Antitrust Act to enable his plan, the entire US banking system may have imploded.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average lost 48% of its value from January 1906 to November 1907. Industrial production dropped by 11%, imports by 26%, while unemployment rose from less than 3% to 8%. The stock market, and the economy, did not recover until the summer of 1908.

Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett in Chicago and both Simmons and Shapleigh in St. Louis were big names, and likely carried high grade guns. Cornell Pubs unfortunately does not list catalog reproductions for Simmons or Shapleigh.

Clabrough & Golcher
http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=158

Thanks,

Excellent info, please keep it coming. How about the pre1890 British hammer guns? Second-tier British makers (top tier being Purdey, Holland & Holland and Boss) like Fred Williams, Claybrough (already mentioned above), Lang, Scott, and others that could have supplied the mid-grade American market during the end of the Victorian Era, mainly before the McKinley Tariff?

Anyone with specific info on trade names please contribute. A good example is that I'm still trying to confirm the English seller/maker of the F A Loomis line of shotguns. I've confirmed around 20 models, usually with a number-letter combination such as "IXL No. 19" engraved on the sideplate. The name may have been owned by a specific importer, which would explain why there are so many models. Claybrough, as well as Williams seem to be possible candidates.

Excellent. Great information. He's one I wasn't familiar with. Do you happen to know if he bought his guns direct from England or if he was an importer, or is it more likely he bought from an importer in the U.S.? I'm having a mental block, the name of a major importer located in NYC currently escapes me..

Folsom comes up quite a bit. I wonder if they were the major importer, and if these other retailers sourced their Langs, Scotts, etc. from them? I suspect that they were the major importer. I base this on the sheer numbers of Crescents produced post 1890, starting when Folsom bought the company in 1893. If Folsom used Crescent production to replace previously imported guns prior to the tariff, totaling over 2,500,000 guns produced, they must have been importing a huge amount of guns before.

I can tell already that this "Flow Chart" is going to be huge.

Charles Godfrey was a major dealer, importer, and jobber located in New York City, after 1879 on Warren Street
The company sold:
I. Hollis & Sons� 3 grades of hammer doubles, the COMPLETE GUN, the PRIZE TRAP and the PRIZE FIELD.
C.G. Bonehill � hammer doubles marked CHARLES J. GODFREY.
W. & C. Scott all grades
T. Bland & Son all lines
Samuel Buckley & Co.� hammer doubles

Thanks, It was Godfrey that I was trying to remember.

There was a discussion on an earlier thread about the VL&D relationship with Francotte. Evidently it goes back into the 19th century. The main point being that it existed well before VL&D decided to adopt the Francotte boxlock as their "Knockabout" gun, which previously had been the model 1900 Sauer sidelock.

Wiebusch & Hilger, Limited, NY


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Alfred Field & Co., 93 Chambers & 75 Reade Streets, NY

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

There's a book called "The Golden Age of Shotgunning" by Bob Hinman. It has an excellent appendix listing hundreds of brand names, who sold them, which companies in the US were agents for various foreign-made guns, etc.

Raimey,

Thanks for the additional names. It possible, could you list any maker's names associated with them?

Larry,

Thanks, I'm going to order a copy on Monday.

Regards
Ken

Samuel Buckley served on the Birmingham Proof House Committee and in 1863 was one of the officers in the British Small Arms Co. He later establish a branch office in Detroit. Guns produced by William Powell in the 1860s exist marked Samuel Buckley & Co. Hammer guns and Anson & Deeley patent BLNEs were imported into the US by J. Palmer O'Neal of Pittsburg, PA in the 1880's.
See The Double Gun Journal Vol. 22 Issue 3, 2011

"The American Exporter�s Export Trade Directory" of 1915 listed Samuel Buckley & Co. as �chiefly importers� with offices at 16 East 33rd St., New York, 2 Soho Square, London and Liege, Belgium. Samuel Buckley & Co., Manhattan incorporated in July 1921.

I've read that Wiebusch & Hilger, Limited, NY had the trademarks Hamilton Arms, Russell, Russell Arms Company & Stanley Arms from 1880-post WWI. Looks like most of their wares were sourced from Belgium, Joseph Cap may also have had the trademark and F. Dumoulin seems to have been a source.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hinman links Russell Arms to H & D Folsom. But it could be that if Wiebusch & Hilger went out of business around or immediately after WWI, Folsom might have acquired the brand name at that time.

I've got Russell Arms Co. made by Joseph Cap and H. Pieper, for Wiebusch & Hilger, very likely imported by H.&D. Folsom, who owned Crescent Fire Arms, who may have made Russell Arms also. Whew!
The ever expanding Folsom, and others, tradename list is here
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OxZo5Tkvx2G8eYf747QR9B5RJdN6Siu5JGIhfguSXXQ

Which side of the Tariff coin did H.&D. Folsom fall on in the late 1880s? As far as I know, the following were adamantly against it:

Alfred Field(A.H. Saxton & George W. Korn),
Wiebusch & Hilger, LTD(Walter M. Taussig),
Schoverling, Daly & Gales,
Hermann Boker & co.(C.H. Graef & Herman Funke, Jr.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A bit of information about Schoverling, Daly & Gales. As many of you know, I am studying guns made by William Powell & Son for my next book. I have spent four weeks at Powell's in Banbury copying information from their ledgers. Beginning in 1870, Powell began selling guns to Schoverling and Daly. That continued until 1 December 1876. I have identified no additional sales until 6 November 1879 at which point the company was identified as Schoverling, Daly & Gales.

Great. Gales was added in 1878 if I remember correctly. Completed sporting weapons or components?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

But before that let me recap a bit. Schoverling & Daly was founded in either 1862 or most give 1865. In 1868 Friedrich Wiebusch was listed as a silent or special partner and he expired in 1893, 2 years after August Schoverling. I'm fairly confident that Friedrich Wiebusch was founding partner in Wiebusch & Hilger(Hilger & Co. founded in 1848??) which arrived on the scene around 1876 and continued till say 1928. After Friedrich Wiebusch expired, Charles Frederick Wiebusch, William S. Hilger & M. Taussig were at the helm and were mainly blade peddlers. In 1892, about the time they were listed as the sole Sauer agents, they were in a tiff with the U.S. of A. over bowie knives, which they considered to be sidearms but the government didn't see it that way & they lost. The seem to have drug in some Belgian arms also and all appears to have left port at Antwerp. Getting back on track, in 1869/1870 Schoverling & Daly advertised as being an agent of William Powell & Sons and the scattergun in the advert looks to have the lifter action but the verbiage is as follows:
"4 systems - Lever Under Guard Double Grip, Side Snap, Top Snap Double Bolt & New Triple Fastening" and I am pleased to see
B. Jacob of Selma, Alabama as an agent. I think it was in 1871 or 1877 as I've gotten my dates crossed but surely in the 1870s, SD&G had a satellite office at No. 65 Weaman Street, Birmingham and that seems to be the address of Tolley.

From -

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=235930&page=15

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

S&D and then S,D & G purchased finished firearms.

What about Baker & Kimball from Boston who imported guns from Christoph Funk?
Could be later than 1915, though...
Best regards,
WC-

Did anyone say Great Western ?

Great info guys, I appreciate all of it. Please keep it coming. Once I receive "The Golden Age of Shotgunning" (recommended by Larry Brown) I'll start the cross reference and chart creation. I anticipate posting the draft versions for everyone's view and critique. Hopefully at the end I'l have a fairly easy-to-use reference chart.

Thanks
Ken

Interesting interrelation between the major importers/distributors, at least in New York.
In the July 3, 1900 New York Times it was reported that the previous day Henry T. was examining a pile of second hand revolvers, picked up a .38 and pulled the trigger shooting and killing a 22 year employee/salesman of Folsom Co. named Peter Koller. Henry was arrested but the shooting was determined to have been an accident.
His lawyer was Justus Von Lengerke.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F20B12FD3D5B11738DDDAA0894DF405B808CF1D3

Overbaugh in NYC. Oddly the catalog resembled that of SD&G

Cornwall and Scmock, NYC 1892

Hartley and Graham [Schyler connected at times]

Hibberd Spencer and Bartlett

Iver Johnson Sporting Goods [successor to J P Lovell]

E C Meacham , St. Louis

Watkins Cotrell Wholesale , founded 1896

Powell and Clement, Cincinnati

New York Sporting Goods

Richmond Hardware, Richmond, Va.

Sorry if I repeated something, Daryl

E.C. Meacham Co., St Louis was indeed a big name, and along with H.S.& B. probably held the record for tradenames. E.C.M.A.Co, Eclipse Beauty, Eclipse Beaver, Eclipse Company, Eclipse Gun Co., Patent 488316 Dec 20 1892, Meteor, Giant, Giant Gun Co., GunCo, Leader Belgium, Hercules, and Star were all Aciens Establissment Pieper / Henri Pieper guns made for Meacham. It is possible that Crescent produced guns have the same tradenames also.



We might also add Fred Biffar & Co., Chicago.