doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Syracuse Arms

There weren't any 'public relations' or 'marketing' consultants back then. Only advertising agencies, copywriters and salesmen. Their jobs were more or less intuitive, with the exception of the agencies writing ads for mail-order companies who could (if they would) calculate the returns of each ad to a cent. What these companies could share was the ad agency or a head salesman (what would be termed "sales director" these days), but I doubt it.

These ads really look quite typical for the period. The reoccurance of 'not shoot loose' is an interesting feature though, and really worthy of additional research. Of course, the first things that comes to mind is that the lack of strength was the consumers' biggest concern back then. With lots of JABC's on the market, the concern is understandable.

But when you're dealing with those days before market research, you've got to be careful. Often, the themes for advertising were suggested by the manufacturer, and reflected not the actual consumer's mind, but what the maker thought was the strongest side of his produce. If the makers put most of their money in developing the strongest action, they would insist on the ads making a special point on that, and the marketing person who could say 'actually, the customers couldn't care less for strength' (if such was the case) wasn't there yet.

Alternatively, there's the 'sincerest form of flattery' - a copywriter could decide 'if it worked for Lefever, it's gonna work for us!' and simply recycle a slogan. Interestingly, the last company which used this selling point was the Baker, which, if I'm not mistaken, by the late 1920s was already on the way out.

I can't give a decided opinion on which was the case, it would take knowing much more about how they advertised, what the consumers actually thought, what the gun writers had to say, who wrote their ads, etc. But the more I think about it, the more I agree that it could be an interesting Advertising Research project. Anyone able to come up with a grant I could win to come over to States and investigate the issue?

John,

Did you get your Syracuse? If not, I've seen another one if you're still looking..
Regards
Ken

Ken,

No the deal fell thru. What did you see?

Thanks,

John

Here's the one I saw.

http://www.armslist.com/posts/3241014/to...ge--30--barrels

Dave and Tom (Researcher and Topgun),

Since I'm restoring my Hollenbeck, I'd like your opinions on this "Restored" gun. I have serious doubts about the historical accuracy of the case coloring, as well as barrel contrast. The listed manufacturing date is also suspect. In 1894 wasn't the "Hollenbeck" name still in use?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=432540923

Thanks
Ken

Ken
Assuming the brief company history contained in the 1902 SAC catalog is correct; then yes, the above noted GB gun was manufactured sometime between 1896 and 1901, as that catalog states the name of the gun "was changed in 1896 to THE SYRACUSE in honor of the city it which it was made". Frank Hollenbeck resigned from the company in July, 1895 (his letter of resignation to the company survive and was found in items from his daughter's estate)where he then went off on his own to make his short-lived "hygenic bicycle seats"; so I would think the name change year is accurate. The gun noted above appears to be a standard early A Greade gun with auto-ejectors, which were also introduced in 1896; and was most likely made before 1900. The HOLLENBECK marked guns were out of procuction by the time SAC offered auto-ejectors, and I've never seen a HOLLENBECK marked SAC gun with retro-fitted auto ejectors. But even though SAC used a consectively number serial number sequence beginning with No. 1 (lowest number I've seen is No.37), my studies find the occassional low serial numbered, high-grade SAC gun built with features not cataloged before 1902 such as the ejector on/off device and their 3/4, or "S" shaped pistol grip; but I've also seen several high and low grade early numbered examples that have combinations of features from all three production periods? All this keeps the study of the SAC gun interesting, but frustrating too; as such discoveries only raise more questions than provides answers.

The colors on the above restored gun are not correct, as the handful of SAC guns I've seen with lots of original remaining case color are much more vivid and vibrant. We have a member here, can't recall his handle, who has a Grade O gun with fabulous original colors; and he may post again to this thread, although I'm sure photos of that gun are archieved here somewhere. All SAC/Hollenbeck guns also featured nitre blued trigger plates; the plate in the example noted above is case colored. The Damascus and Twist barreled SAC guns I've seen with lots of original barrel pattern finish feature black and white contrast as opposed to a "browned" look. Dr. Drew, should he choose to post, has pics of an "as new" set of SAC Grade 2 & 3 Improved Damascus patterned barrels he might share again. He also has pics (not great pics) of the case colors from a 1901 vintage Grade 00 SAC gun I recently stumbled across that he could also share. As regards restoration of finishes to your gun, I would suggest that you pull out your DGJ collection (Volume 23, Issue 4) and check out Terry Allen's pics of a Grade D3 Hollenbeck SAC gun (#180 I believe?), as that gun had tons of remaining original and period correct finishes; altough its original case colors had darkened a bit with age. Hope this helps you some what, and feel free to ask for my assistance anytime. Tom

"Washington" or "American Flag Bunting"



Looking for the 00 case colors pic

Thanks Tom and DocDrew,

Tom, I appreciate the info, I couldn't believe the gun was made in 1894. (due to knowledge I gained from you, Dave, DocDrew and the others on this board. I'm a good student, and don't claim to have done the primary research) I especially appreciate the info on the trigger plates, as now I know what to do with them. How about the toplever, and screws? Nitre blued or case colored?. I assume, (usually a bad idea) that the trigger guard was nitre blued?

DocDrew, great pic, wonderful barrels with very nice contrast. Contrast is what I have a problem with the aforementioned restored SAC gun, it looks not quite right to me, but it may be lighting. The extreme darkness of the case coloring is also puzzling, so I'll reiterate a phrase I often use on restored guns: "I can't imagine that it would have been allowed to leave the factory that way"..

Thanks again
Ken

More images from Tom

Great! It looks like the top lever is case colored, the trigger guard (as well as the trigger plate) and screws are nitre blued! Ghost holes on the action sides, so the holes were left open. A good assortment of browns, so more phosphorus in the medium. Now, it's a matter of figuring out the shielding.

Thanks
Ken