doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Views on 60s Zephyr Uplander King by V. Sarasqueta

There are some seriously nice Sarriugarte box lock guns out there :-)

But a side lock marked Sarriugarte on the barrels, American Arms Import, model Derby, is almost certainly a DIARM gun. Not only do these guns have barrels marked Sarriugarte, they will usually have the maker�s mark of Armas Erbi (BEST) on the barrel flats and water table. The major tip offs with these guns are the model name and the proof year code. �Derby� is a DIARM model name and the proof year code will put their production in the DIARM years, after both Sarriugarte and Erbi went out of business to join DIARM.

Sometimes �buying the name� gets a gun that wasn�t made by the name on top of the barrels � or the maker whose mark is on the water table/barrel flats.

Ah, Larry, It�s all anecdotal. My positive experience with Zabala Hermanos, your negative experience with same, the experience of any audience as broad as you please is � anecdotal.

Mine was proofed in 1969, a few years before Diarm and wasn't imported by American Arms. I still like my Sarriugarte. Do I get a half a cigar?

Half a cigar and a gold star!

The point, Kyrie, is that if you query a broad enough audience, you're more likely to come up with more negative anecdotes. Would you care to wager about whether Zabala Hermanos or V. Sarasqueta would be more likely to have more negative anecdotes (to be fair, by %--since far more people have owned ZH guns than VS guns)? To me, that difference is what makes one name on a gun worth more than another. "Buy the gun, not the name" sounds good--until you shoot the gun for a period of time and either encounter, or do not encounter, various problems. I'll pay more for a gun, assuming similar grade and condition, if it's from the maker with a better reputation for quality control. You get into a discussion about Zabala Hermanos and it quickly becomes evident that their quality control is inconsistent.

And there is one of the many problems with anecdotal data; do we hear more about problems with A than Z because there are more there are more A guns in absolute numbers, or because people don�t report problem Z guns, or because problem Z guns were all fixed decades ago, or for some other reason? The anecdotal data doesn�t � and cannot � tell us.


A lot of people feel the same way, and I say �more power to them.� It�s their money. But here�s the rub. That ZH two barrel set is easily the equal of an AyA No.2 in quality (and I�m using the word �quality� to describe the number of hours of skilled hand labor that goes into making a gun), and the ZH was had for less than a third what a used, 20 gauge, AyA No.2 would cost (with only one barrel!). I suspect I just upset a number of people, but this discussion is fundamentally about value (how much gun for how much money). It's all too easy to spend money just for a name.


Which makes them unusual in no way. Have you looked at any number of the AyA No. 2 guns made recently? There are lots of examples of poor metal to wood fit around the locks and the frame by the trigger guard. And the �engraving� stamped into the right lock is off center more often than not. The �engraving� on that ZH side lock is also stamped, but at least it stamped well centered.

The bottom line to all this is people tend to choose guns made by names they recognize. Nothing wrong with that. It�s even good for me, as it means I have less competition for the really nice guns made by people with names most folks don�t know, like this Martin Ugarteburu SLE assisted-opener:

I thought we were talking about V. Sarasqueta vs Zabala, not AyA. I have a Belgian sidelock by Maison Fernand Thonon, Liege: "Armes de Grand Luxe". Hand-detachable sidelocks with gorgeous game scene engraving, surrounded by wonderful, delicate scroll engraving. All done by hand, 65 years ago. But in condition that would indicate a much newer gun. The sad part is, I couldn't sell that gun for what a new AyA #2 costs. (But then I didn't pay what a new AyA #2 costs either.) Likewise, I can get a high grade V. Sarasqueta sidelock for less money than an AyA #2--and that's exactly what I'd do. Because for better or worse--due to the facts that VS is no more, and that they imported a lot of lower and some medium grade guns for Stoeger, and those are the ones with which most people are familiar (if they're familiar with any!)--the Spanish guns that bring big bucks are the ones with names that are familiar because they survived Diarm and have continued to import guns. And, in the case of AyA and all the other surviving Spanish makers (except Uggie and ZH), they no longer offer any inexpensive guns. Which causes people to think they must all be good. And, in truth, they're not likely to be clunkers. But it does depress the market for Spanish guns long out of production. And in my case, if we're talking Spanish and out of production, I'll react immediately to an add for a VS sidelock of higher grade than those Stoeger brought in. I just have a higher level of confidence that I'd end up with a good gun. Not only in terms of fit and finish, but also reliable performance.