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GOOD eye Raimey!!

m-4

I do admit I did not really look at the marks on the action. It does appear to have both Belgian & German marks. The D=75/18.9 is definitely a Belgian mark as is the crown over ELG, the Perron, the PV mark & the 16/C in diamond can be either Belgian or German prior to 1924. The D=75/18.9 is as stated, a 75mm long chamber having a rear diameter of 18.9mm. This mark was used only on Smokeless Powder proofed guns "In Belgium" from 1892 to 1924. I have never seen that mark from a German proof house. The Crown/W is a German mark as you say.

Forgot to highlight the Crown over S on the right flat. I wouldn't say that any one Belgian or German mark to be mixed, rather there was a full regiment of Z-M(Zella-Mehlis-German) marks on an example in the final state that are mixed with a full regiment of Belgian marks. For the moment, & it's a pretty long-shot but for sure a non-zero probability, I'd say that Pieper sourced it from a Z-M mechanic. The German marks are quite worn and look to be overstamped. If that was the case, why the full regiment of Belgian marks, maybe an alteration for the long 16 bore chambers, if that is to be believed. My question would be, are there any other examples like Canvasback possesses which might have German marks. Most difficult to discern, but the date code appears to be 408 and a ledger number of 311. But that would be quite early for a Nitro proof effort on the tubes, that is if a Crown over N Eagle Nitro exists.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, your ability to extract info from these scratches always amazes me.

Here are the proofs for my 485E. I don't have good pics of the proofs for the two lower grade models but I'll take some later today and post if you want me to.

Note the D=70/20.6 mark on this smokeless proof gun. The 70 converts to 2.756" (2 3/4") with the 20.6 converting to .811", a proper size for its 12ga chamber at the rear. I do not see any German marks on this one at all & it still carries the nominal chamber size as 12/C in the Diamond.
Perhaps, just another thought on the first gun. German proof laws at the time as I understand them were extremely severe, actually requiring the same proportionate increase in weight of powder charge as was specified for black. Smokeless powder pressures go up with an increased load much faster than does black so many German makers simply refused to submit their guns for Smokeless proof. This law was changed & became more realistic in 1912 when Smokeless proof then became mandatory. Perhaps Pieper did source these barrels from Germany & had to have them proofed before they could be sent to Belgian, But, he waited till they got to Belgium to have them smokeless proofed. A possibility I believe.

Note the D=70/20.6 mark on this smokeless proof gun. The 70 converts to 2.756" (2 3/4") with the 20.6 converting to .811", a proper size for its 12ga chamber at the rear. I do not see any German marks on this one at all & it still carries the nominal chamber size as 12/C in the Diamond.
Perhaps, just another thought on the first gun. German proof laws at the time as I understand them were extremely severe, actually requiring the same proportionate increase in weight of powder charge as was specified for black. Smokeless powder pressures go up with an increased load much faster than does black so many German makers simply refused to submit their guns for Smokeless proof. This law was changed & became more realistic in 1912 when Smokeless proof then became mandatory. Perhaps Pieper did source these barrels from Germany & had to have them proofed before they could be sent to Belgian, But, he waited till they got to Belgium to have them smokeless proofed. A possibility I believe.

An interesting J. Novonty of Prague peddled example manufactured by Anciens Establissments Pieper Herstal that I ran across on a Russian site.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Of course it wears Hungarian Proofs in addition to the Belgian ones. Is it possible it was made in early 1897?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I looked over basic extractor model with blued receiver, with Bayard trademark barrels and characteristic screw through stock. Nice rainy day gun that in terms of handling, checkering and finish is better than one of our old "Farmer Grade" doubles. What we see in original posters pick is their version of our NID.
Couple guns I have seen from Austro-Hungarian shop of Novotny seemed to have used Belgian actions.

Intriguing action. Outwardly looks like a boxlock but it is missing the tumbler axle. Also the lock up at the rear lump seems dainty in the pics.

What kind of action is it? The trigger plate does not seem wide enough for it to be a trigger plate type.