doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Who pays: Seller or buyer?

A good friend purchased a $10,000+ double from a prominent dealer at the Bienfield Show last month. The gun was listed as being in "excellent" condition on the dealer's website, no issues mentioned. He shot the gun 4 days after he received it. After just a few shots, one of the ejectors ceased working. The dealer recommended a couple gunsmiths who could handle the repair, but didn't offer to pay any part of the cost involved.

Looking for your opinions. Should the dealer be responsible for repairing a gun that develops a problem shortly after he's sold it? The buyer? Some combination of the two? Also interested in hearing your experiences with various dealers if you've had similar situations. I've had some, but I'll hold off and relate mine later.

Did the dealer offer an inspection period? If so, did your friend have a gunsmith inspect the gun within that period?

This is certainly a grey area which is open to all possibilities.
Ethically, the dealer is responsible for nothing as long as he knew nothing about impending problems. The gun did work upon delivery after all.
Of course if the dealer "fixed" the gun with rubber bands and chewing gums before delivery, or knew about flaky operation, then he is at fault for not disclosing anything.
Even if the dealer knew nothing of the problem, and if he would like repeat business from said customer, he probably should share some of the repair costs on a good will basis.

To some extent, the fact that the gun is a stock item or a consignment makes a difference. Expect less from a consignment situation.

Some dealers are great for service, some others not so much...
Some are plain incompetent...Some are fair price wise, some are atrociously overpriced. It's all over the map...

Best regards,
WC-

Most fine gun dealers offer a 3-day inspection, usually non-firing. This is because the dealer has no control over the circumstances of use and/or the quality or type of shells being fired. With vintage guns, there is always an element of risk of mechanical problems for both the seller and buyer. Nobody wants a problem to arise, but everything has a lifespan, and this includes the various components of even a finely made firearm. The inspection period is to allow everybody involved to be comfortable with a guns description and characteristics. After that period expires, the liability shifts from the seller to the buyer. There really isn't any other way to do this, as no business can survive with unlimited liability. Depending on the nature of the relationship between the buyer and seller, the seller can, as a good-will gesture, offer to pay either part or all of the repair bill. But this is strictly voluntary on the seller's part.

Who gets to define "shortly? Is that a few days days or a few years in the life of a gun? How can a seller be held responsible for how a buyer handles a gun?

Seems there're 2 perspectives...the legal one (warranty express or implied?) and the ethical one. If I were the seller, I'd offer to share the expense. If I were the buyer, I'd expect to bear it, and be ecstatic if the seller offered anything at all.

I had a celebrity gunsmith rust blue a set of double barrels. Most readers will appreciate the "hands-on" time that requires. After firing 2 shots I found the rib was separated. Couldn't have arrived in his shop that way.... how can you rust blue a set of barrels and not recognize a loose rib? The famous gunsmith disavowed all responsibility but offered to repair for his usual fee. I ungraciously declined to let him touch my gun again.

I gave a celebrity stocker a complete gun so he could make me a forend to match the butt. While in his shop, my butt got dinged. He fessed up and offered to fix it, obviously without charge, but I declined since I did my own finishing. He returned it with a superbly matched forend....gratis. I thanked him and insisted on paying for the wood, accepting his free labor. That man I recommend without hesitation.

I think the buyer eats that expense. I've had it happen to me. I bought a BSS and didn't shoot it for awhile. When I got around to a round of clays I found that it quit recocking one of the locks after about half a round of clays. It worked fine for the first 40-50 shots. I never even called the seller about it.

It is a part of buying used stuff, without any warranty.

OBTW, does a three day inspection include dry firing with snap caps? I would say yes, but never heard that specified, or not. I've always assumed "non-firing inspection" meant no live ammo.

SRH

Buyer pays, and then sends a series of links to the dealer affording him the opportunity to defend his actions in the many public forums where the story has been carefully told.

This past year I purchased a beautiful Model 21 from Vintage Firearms Inc.
Lifted from 1 of his many internet listings is the following,
"We offer a 30 day mechanical warranty on this fine shotgun".

Is owner Mr. Shacter perfect? No.
Does he offer the most info and great pictures along with an extended warranty on his guns? Yes.

I hate when a dealer disavows any responsibility for the goods that they sell.

Buyer unless it happened during the inspection period with permission to shoot with a specific ammo. The drawback of buying used.

In this case, as I understand it, normal 3 day inspection period. No firing. I've always assumed snap caps were fine, and in this case, the buyer tried the gun with snap caps upon receiving it, and the ejectors worked fine.

I've never assumed that the inspection period meant you could have your gunsmith disassemble the action--unless that was expressly allowed by the dealer. Your "gunsmith" might be some shade tree local who'd end up buggering screws, etc. However . . . in this case, the buyer has a highly-regarded doublegun smith just down the road. Especially with an older gun (I believe we're talking pre-WWI in this case), I might ask a dealer whether I could have a gunsmith with a good reputation disassemble the gun during the inspection period. (I'd provide the gunsmith's name, of course.) Don't believe my friend did so in this case.

Couple of experiences I've had: Bought a 16ga Greener from Cabela's. On about the 3rd shot, the gun broke through the wrist. Old repair which neither I nor the guy who ran the Gun Library had spotted. (Hidden in the checkering.) I was pretty sure Cabela's would refund my money, but I asked if they would restock it for me. They did . . . on their dime.

Recently bought a 20ga Merkel from Mark Beasland. Fairly new gun, but still "used". Immediately took it to the local gun club. Worked fine stations 1-4. (In fact, I was "straight" with it.) On 5, I couldn't get the safety to disengage. Finally did, but then the gun doubled--after which the safety would not disengage. Called Mark, took it back to him. He showed me the broken part, which he could have repaired. However, he ordered a new part from Merkel, installed it, and I had the gun back in less than 2 weeks. All on his dime.

I agree that you can't offer an open-ended warranty on vintage guns, but it seems to me policies like that will be reported on websites like this one, and are likely to be of benefit to the dealer's business. Shacter's 30 day mechanical warranty sounds like a pretty good "middle of the road" policy. Kind of like the 30 day/1,000 mile warranty many used car dealers offer--or used to.