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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,007 Likes: 1817
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 14,007 Likes: 1817 |
Thanks, Tom. I'm gonna step that off next time at the range. It just doesn't seem that far to that marker. I don't doubt you, tho'. I'm gonna win a bet with that piece of info!  SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Larry, yes, thanks for clearing that up. I did fail to constrain the findings with equal bore and shot loads. There is a ton of research yet to be done and just hope some of the researchers will make the effort to use the shotgun insights program and analysis so we can finally build a valid database of shotgun pattern performance.
Tom, I agree with you on the distance on a skeet field. I have, over the years, practiced some longer range shooting and sometimes when I'm shooting a tight choke gun entertain the onlookers by breaking targets near the out-of-bounds stake.
DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165 |
Don, I think the missing piece of the puzzle is determining what % of single pellet hits result in breaks vs "misses".
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,227
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,227 |
I think it would be easier, and far more productive, to sit in the clubhouse and separate the fly turds from the pepper.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165 |
Better still to sit in a clubhouse with no flies.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Don, I think the missing piece of the puzzle is determining what % of single pellet hits result in breaks vs "misses". OK, Larry, I think we are in agreement. Dr. Jones's work is the most significant data we currently have on pattern performance and will remain so until someone adds to the database. The tools for pattern analysis are available to all. And, there are other methods for determining % of single pellet breaks of single pellet hits. DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
I think it would be easier, and far more productive, to sit in the clubhouse and separate the fly turds from the pepper. 'Fraud I can't agree with you, but do recognize the right of each person to follow his own interest. So, what % of fly turds do you find on average in a standard pepper shaker?  DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165 |
Don, I think the missing piece of the puzzle is determining what % of single pellet hits result in breaks vs "misses". OK, Larry, I think we are in agreement. Dr. Jones's work is the most significant data we currently have on pattern performance and will remain so until someone adds to the database. The tools for pattern analysis are available to all. And, there are other methods for determining % of single pellet breaks of single pellet hits. DDA Don, if there are other methods (accurate ones, not just "eyeballing"), why wouldn't Dr. Jones apply them rather than postulating, based on pattern analysis, that there must be a lot of single pellet breaks in skeet?
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
[quote=Rocketman][quote=L. Brown
Don, if there are other methods (accurate ones, not just "eyeballing"), why wouldn't Dr. Jones apply them rather than postulating, based on pattern analysis, that there must be a lot of single pellet breaks in skeet? Because he is interested in understanding the mechanism of pellets breaking targets. He is interested in the correlation between pattern analysis and scores. Analysis says there needs to be fair number of single pellet hits. Experience says (near) perfect scores are possible and targets can take single, even multiple, hits and not break. Therefore, baring what seems to be unreasonably small aiming error, there needs to be some % of single pellet breaks. The new crop of barrel mounted video cameras may allow objective analysis of aiming error, which until now has been unknowable. Some people climb mountains just because they are there. Others want to know why as well as how. It is not at all unusual to have "why" help improve "how." DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165 |
[quote=Rocketman][quote=L. Brown
Don, if there are other methods (accurate ones, not just "eyeballing"), why wouldn't Dr. Jones apply them rather than postulating, based on pattern analysis, that there must be a lot of single pellet breaks in skeet? Because he is interested in understanding the mechanism of pellets breaking targets. He is interested in the correlation between pattern analysis and scores. Analysis says there needs to be fair number of single pellet hits. Experience says (near) perfect scores are possible and targets can take single, even multiple, hits and not break. Therefore, baring what seems to be unreasonably small aiming error, there needs to be some % of single pellet breaks. The new crop of barrel mounted video cameras may allow objective analysis of aiming error, which until now has been unknowable. Some people climb mountains just because they are there. Others want to know why as well as how. It is not at all unusual to have "why" help improve "how." DDA Don, it seems that this is where experience clashes with analysis. Since we know--from experience--that it's not unusual for single pellet hits to result in unbroken targets, that makes it harder for experienced skeet shooters to accept that single pellet breaks are very common. Seems a bit like postulating, base on physics (or whatever) that the curve ball is an optical illusion. I believe it was Dizzy Dean who suggested putting the individual who came up with the illusion theory behind a sheet of wood 60'6" away--and he'd beat him to death with illusions.
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