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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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Don, let me suggest a couple problems with pattern analysis relative to skeet:
First, skeet targets are all relatively close range. 25 yards would be a pretty long shot. However, a lot of targets are shot much closer than that. Even with a .410 and half an ounce of shot, you can smoke station 8 birds, and the incomers on 1 and 7 in particular. Especially on doubles, when they're going to be fairly close. So if you're analyzing patterns shot at an "average" distance, there will in fact be some birds taken much closer than the average. Therefore more likely to be hit by more pellets than represented by patterns analyzed at an "average" range.
Second, a pattern is a two dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional phenomenon. Even if the holes in the paper look like they're spread enough in two dimensions that only X number will strike the target, it's possible--due to string--that either more pellets (or, for that matter, fewer) will actually hit the target close enough together in time as well as in space to influence the break. I don't believe string is a really significant element at skeet ranges, although Brister does point out that good skeet shooters, who are more likely to miss ahead than behind, can benefit from string on crossing birds when tail-end pellets compensate for excess forward allowance.
Finally, it's difficult to compare 100 straights today with 100 straights when skeet was a new game. The old rules required low gun and a variable delay of up to 3 seconds. When those 2 factors were eliminated, American skeet became a mounted gun game in which a shooter can refuse a target because of a slow or fast pull. 100 straights became far more common. If you want a bit of entertainment, watch modern day skeet shooters attempt to adjust to skeet under the original rules. As far as chokes go, the game was invented by grouse hunters, who already were shooting pretty open chokes. And all the major gunmakers were producing purpose-built skeet guns, years before WWII, with open chokes. So I'd say it was more a case of the rules making 100 straights rare rather than the chokes.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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You can google "longest shot at skeet" and find every answer from 21 to 27 yards. I had always heard 21, but you can find most any answer you want, it seems.
You know, if registered skeet shooters can't agree on what is the longest possible shot at a legal target, that's pretty bad. We're not talking light years here.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Agree, Stan. And "longest possible" . . . if I'm shooting recreational skeet with a double that has a pretty tight 2nd barrel, I'll let the low singles from 6 and 7 get WAY out there before taking a shot. If we're talking competition, obviously depends on how quickly you shoot. You're supposed to take the birds in the middle of the field, but some guys are quicker than that and some are slower. But there are definitely some that are shot a lot closer than 21 yards.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I'm really not a skeet shooter. I compete at sporting clays and when I have a chance to shoot a couple hours I get in a round of 100. However, every now and then I will have a little more time and will take a S x S and shoot a round of low gun skeet. Last time I did so it was with my little .410 S x S bird gun. I let the trapper know I'm just having fun and not to "get his panties in a wad". If I miss, I may shoot the second barrel at it, just like hunting. Unless there's an old grump shooting with me msot people have more fun watching me, spin around and take #8 low house going away, as shooting themselves.
All in fun. Good hunting practice for the .410 because the longest bird on a skeet field is just about my range limit on doves and quail with it.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Station 8 would certainly be better practice for the field if you had to pivot and take the bird going away, because if you ever shot a live bird that close, it'd be guts and feathers. However, shooters would have to be careful to pivot AWAY from the rest of the squad.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Don, let me suggest a couple problems with pattern analysis relative to skeet: Larry, I know you to be a very smart guy, so I'm going to get a wee bit "heavy"
With the explanation.
First, skeet targets are all relatively close range. 25 yards would be a pretty long shot. However, a lot of targets are shot much closer than that. Even with a .410 and half an ounce of shot, you can smoke station 8 birds, and the incomers on 1 and 7 in particular. Especially on doubles, when they're going to be fairly close. So if you're analyzing patterns shot at an "average" distance, there will in fact be some birds taken much closer than the average. Therefore more likely to be hit by more pellets than represented by patterns analyzed at an "average" range. Fortunately, it is not necessary to use "average" range to analyze probability of the number of pellet hits. Shotgun patterns follow the Rayleigh distribution (although, the Normal distribution is a good enough facsimile). They are Normally distributed as soon as the shot separates at the muzzle and remain so until they hit the ground. Because of this characteristic, once the standard deviation of a pattern is known it can be projected forward and backward with sufficient accuracy for our purposes. It is not necessary to assume some "average" distance and shoot patterns at that distance. We can establish the gun/cartridge characteristics at some reasonable distance, say 20 yards. Then we can use projected patterns to establish hit probabilities at "any" distance.
Second, a pattern is a two dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional phenomenon. Yes, but the target will move only a small amount as the shot string passes. Even if the holes in the paper look like they're spread enough in two dimensions that only X number will strike the target, it's possible--due to string--that either more pellets (or, for that matter, fewer) will actually hit the target close enough together in time as well as in space to influence the break. Yes, but all the space the target moves through is populated by pellets as shown by the 2D analysis. When the target vacates one space, it move into another that is reasonably similarly populated with pellets. I don't believe string is a really significant element at skeet ranges (agree), although Brister does point out that good skeet shooters, who are more likely to miss ahead than behind, can benefit from string on crossing birds when tail-end pellets compensate for excess forward allowance. I believe that while Brister is technically "in the right direction," I also think we would be talking about only a few inches of over lead/forward allowance.
Finally, it's difficult to compare 100 straights today with 100 straights when skeet was a new game. The old rules required low gun and a variable delay of up to 3 seconds. When those 2 factors were eliminated, American skeet became a mounted gun game in which a shooter can refuse a target because of a slow or fast pull. 100 straights became far more common. If you want a bit of entertainment, watch modern day skeet shooters attempt to adjust to skeet under the original rules. As far as chokes go, the game was invented by grouse hunters, who already were shooting pretty open chokes. And all the major gunmakers were producing purpose-built skeet guns, years before WWII, with open chokes. So I'd say it was more a case of the rules making 100 straights rare rather than the chokes.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,571 Likes: 165 |
Don, the problem with "projecting patterns" is that said projection has to depend on choke. Indeed, I agree that if you know how a gun patterns at 20 yards, you can work backward. And forward. BUT ONLY RELATIVE TO THAT PARTICULAR GUN WITH THAT PARTICULAR CHOKE. (And in fact, only with that particular LOAD.)
So you have two very important variables to consider: choke and load. Thus, projecting distribution of hits is valid ONLY FOR ONE SPECIFIC GUN, AND THE SPECIFIC LOAD BEING USED IN THAT SPECIFIC GUN.
Pretty hard to generalize, given those very important variables.
Last edited by L. Brown; 02/09/14 08:35 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Don, the problem with "projecting patterns" is that said projection has to depend on choke. Indeed, I agree that if you know how a gun patterns at 20 yards, you can work backward. And forward. BUT ONLY RELATIVE TO THAT PARTICULAR GUN WITH THAT PARTICULAR CHOKE. (And in fact, only with that particular LOAD.)
So you have two very important variables to consider: choke and load. Thus, projecting distribution of hits is valid ONLY FOR ONE SPECIFIC GUN, AND THE SPECIFIC LOAD BEING USED IN THAT SPECIFIC GUN.
Pretty hard to generalize, given those very important variables. Larry, this would be the usual logic. However, Dr. Jones did not find this to work. He found more variability within the 10 patterns per gun-load than between various gun -loads provided that the constriction of the choke was the same. Soft shot in one load vs hard shot in the other may show a difference. That's about it until someone comes up with more data that will stand up to analysis. DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Now hold on there, Don. I can guarantee you that there will be a whole bunch of variability between a .410 with a 1/2 oz load of 9's and a 12ga with a 1 1/8 oz load of 9's. Going back to the question of how many single pellet breaks occur, I doubt anyone here would disagree with the notion that they're far more likely to occur with the .410 (that being one reason .410 scores are lower than 12ga scores) than with the 12ga, because of the very significant difference in pattern density.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 775
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 775 |
The longest possible legal target on a skeet range is 42 yards, plus a little because of the angle of the flight path. That range is the approximate distance from station one or seven to the out of bounds marker on the opposite side of the field. I have seen targets shot and more shot at, at those distances, when someone forgets to take off the safety or has some other brain malfunction. Twenty one yards or less is what most of the better shooters strive for.
Last edited by Tom Martin; 02/10/14 10:33 AM.
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