doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com On plated shot ...

[quote=tw))1) rotational or centrifugal force has a significant effect on target breakage. I happen to subscribe to the idea that a single pellet strike can cause a target break, not all the time, but frequently when the targets are good quality pitch & the machines in good repair. tw, Dr. J's research agrees with your observation. He tested with realistic rotational speeds but no forward airspeed. The major mode of failure with a single pellet hit was for a fracture to radiate from the strike and cause the target to separate into 2/3/4 pieces. Were the fracture not subjected to the continuing centrifugal force of rotation it is much less likely to separate.
DDA [/quote]

Sorry to have wandered away from this discussion. My computer fell victim to a "single virus" hit and was out of action for a few days, after which I neglected to pick up on the thread.

We can certainly all agree that single pellet hits CAN break targets. Anyone who's picked up unbroken but "holed" targets will also agree that not all single pellet hits break targets, and sometime 2 pellet hits fail to break targets. Dr. Jones' contention, based on pattern analysis, is that single pellet breaks have to be relatively frequent in order to explain the number of "straights" in skeet--where we know that 100's are not at all uncommon for really good skeet shooters, especially in gauges larger than the .410.

I don't recall--perhaps Rocketman can confirm--that Dr. Jones gave any sort of ballpark figure on what % of breaks are of the single pellet variety (other than to suggest that they occur frequently), nor did he speculate on what % of single pellet hits result in a break rather than a "miss". But I do recall that when his work was first discussed here, quite a few of us remarked that single pellet "misses" are also quite frequent, based on strolling around skeet fields and picking up holed but unbroken targets, and also recognizing that the ground can be responsible for breaking both true misses (no holes) as well as single pellet "misses". Based on analyzing what we'd seen, many of us felt that there couldn't be too many single pellet breaks in a run of 100, because if there were very many single pellet hits, somewhere along the line there'd be a single pellet "miss".

My feeling, on reading Dr. Jones' pattern analysis theory on the frequency of single pellet breaks, was that he needed to spend less time looking at patterns and more time on a skeet field--observing hits and collecting unbroken "missed" targets--in order to collect physical evidence in relation to his theory.

Rocketman: No offence taken: Yes, I was being silly.
I, too, have seen a lot of things happen with clay targets that seem to defy averages. Many times, I have seen a target "smoked," which means it was hit, but failed to have a chip come off, so is called "lost." This happens more on a trap range than on skeet it seems.
Dr. Jones findings are far more intelligent and learned than mine, which are just based on casual observation, and looking down at lots of broken and not broken targets on trap and skeet ranges.
As to Nickel plated shot; I wish I had a bag of #5 Italian shot, heavily plated as they used to be. I can use all the help I can get when shooting at a bird.
Sam Ogle:(ps; Rocketman; I tried to PM you, but your PM thing is "full")

Since I happened to be in the vicinity of our gun club today, thought I'd collect a bit of unbroken target evidence to analyze. With the deep, fluffy snow we have, unlikely that contact with the ground will result in many breaks. So if a target appeared unhit in the air, it likely landed whole in the snow.

Managed to collect a total of 68 targets. Because of where the snow was piled, many of them were from the adjacent 5 stand range rather than from the skeet range. But an unbroken target is an unbroken target, and the shots are not all that much longer than skeet.

Results: 57 targets without holes or significant chips from a hit. (Falling in the snow, not much other than a stray pellet could cause a chip.) 11 unbroken but with holes or chips that appear to have been from pellet strikes. So not very unusual for a light hit to leave a target in one piece.

As a skeet shooter for many years, I don't buy the theory that many of the 100 straights are the result of one pellet hits. I had the opportunity to watch the late Wayne Mayes shoot many times between when I started shooting registered skeet in 1975 and 2005. During those years, Wayne maintained a 99+% average in the 12 gauge, shooting at 79,500 targets, and when he hit a target,there were no large pieces, only a cloud of black dust. Wayne broke 100 .410 bore targets 200 times over his career. Good scores have everything to do with the skill of the shooter and almost nothing to do with the random chance of a single pellet breaking a target. Shooters of world championship class often shoot tighter chokes than normal skeet chokes, and depend on their ability to center the target in the pattern for their averages.

Sam Ogle must be joking when he says that a "smoked bird is lost". He can't be serious. Picking up whole birds tells the tale about whether one to ten shot can result in unbroken birds. It isn't hard to do, and these researchers are working way to hard to prove nothing. Larry Brown's post proves it all. If a target is not hit by any shot, it doesn't break, and is called "lost".

Both Tom and eightbore's posts above are dead on. I don't know what Sam Ogle means either, but I shoot tight chokes, all the time on clays. Over half my targets on a typical round of 100 are smoked, with no visible chips. Never had anyone call a lost bird on one yet, and that includes many NSCA registered tournaments. But then, I don't shoot with idiots. Not calling you an idiot, Sam, just anyone who would call a smoked target lost. Amazing, the things that happen above the M/D line.

SRH

P.S. I think Sam meant dusted, rather than smoked. Dusted is when you see dust come off the target, but no chips. Smoked is when there is nothing but a puffball of dust left, again with no visible chips. What we have here is ............ failure, to communicate.

I think what Sam was referring to is what we would call a 'dusted' target.

Sorta like what Dig was saying about 'water tables' vs. 'action flats'. Different nomenclature, but same meaning.

I, too, am sure Sam meant "dusted."

Most of us can't shoot as well as Wayne Mayes!! So, us mere mortals need all the help we can get. The tighter the choke, the lower the probability of single pellet hits, I think. As I recall, when Skeet first burst upon the shotgun scene most folks were shooting "tight" chokes and it was commonly believed that 100 straight was impossible. The Wayne Mayeses of the world could probably shoot 100's with a .22 (those smoke balls indicate "rifle shot centered"). Most of us mortals will shoot a 100 with an open choke long before we do with a tight one. That said, how do we reconcile pattern with performance?

DDA

I started shooting skeet with pump guns, Remington 870's and Winchester M12's and M42s'. All had skeet chokes, with both the 870 and M42 having 0.005" constriction in the .410. After 2 or 3 years, I went to a Remington 3200 with Purbaugh sub gauge tubes. The 20 gauge tubes had 0.014" of choke, and the .410s had 0.007". I don't recall the constriction of the 28ga tubes. My scores immediately went up, which can be partially explained by going to an O/U, but is also partially due to better centering oft the patterns on the target required by the tighter chokes. I shot a good many 100 straights with the 12, 20 and 28 gauges, but never managed more than 99 with the .410, but I did shoot a number of those. when I missed a target with any of the gauges, I missed so far that a stray pellet couldn't have helped! all but one of the single target misses with the .410 were misses in front of the target on low 6 in the last round - and were simply caused by becoming so wound up by having gone straight to that point that I either started early or swung too hard. The other 99 in the .410 was shot after missing the first target of the first round, then breaking the following 99, and that was the most difficult for me, because after blowing the easy high one, it was hard to concentrate on the rest.