doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Recent gunfitting

Whatever works:

Long stocks work PRE-MOUNTED

Kimberly Rhode with her old Perazzi



Possibly Capt. Money



'3 fingers' stock; Richard Faulds at the 2008 Olympics



Derek Burnett - Ireland at the 2012 London Olympics, Men's Trap



Crawling the stock with nose touching thumb; Dr John Truitt at The Southern



Head position matters a great deal



Interesting stuff here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c7UkkNyMTZ9NAztILpzjSLKvgIneAw5i7eqkZ3d3Eno/preview

I'm a 6' 2", 175# long pencil neck geek and wear 16X35 dress shirts and shoot best LOW GUN crawling a 14 1/2" LOP stock.
I very much agree with trying a slip on pad for awhile before altering your stock/purchasing a custom stock.

I can't stay out of this.

In the beginning LOP was measured from a fixed trigger to three points on the end of a straight stock. Then we got pistol grips and single triggers. We now have movable triggers.

Now the argument starts.

I say that a movable trigger allows for different finger lengths
and has nothing to do with LOP.

I say that LOP varies with the weight and balance of the gun and the use of that gun.
danc

I am one of those gifted people who can shoot any gun well, regardless of barrel, choke, stock combo, number if triggers, until I buy it. Then the fit goes away and the misses begin and I like it that way. Who wants to hit everything you shoot at? Limits are too low and a few misses makes a hunt last longer.

I have been fit multiple times. For clays, once for a side by side, a O/U, pump guns and once again for clays about 20 years after the first fitting. Everything is different and there was very little common ground between the measurements. I did learn how to compensate and adjust better for minor gun stock differences. Every fitter has his particular "special" aspect which he thinks is the magic answer to our misses. One worries about cast off, cast on, another worries about toe in or out or negative or positive this or that, longer this or shorter that. They are all right and all wrong at the same time. At best they can get you into a fairly generic fit and you need to refine it from there. Practice will show you what works and what does not over time and the more you shoot the more your needs will change.

I learned it is all about feel and adjusting until a gun just feels right and shoots where you want it to. Gain 25 pounds, change layers of clothes, get 10 years older, work behind a younger, more aggressive dog, go from a sticky pad to a smoother or slicker pad and it changes everything. Do not even think about bifocals and gun fit.

If you think you need 16" lop try it for six months. At one time I shot 7/8" drop at comb and now shoot from 1 3/8 to 1 5/8. Gain 50 pounds, get older, change from pre-mounted to low gun or semi low gun and your needs will change. To me fit is just another reason to have more guns.

Ky, that is just about the clearest presentation of the conundrum of "stock" fitting I have read. Way too much time and effort (to say nothing of money) is spent in pursuit of the elusive and perhaps nonexistent perfect fit. It's a shotgun! just shoot the darned thing and have fun.

Some of us can hit birds with practice, perfect conditions and the right equipment. Others have to rely on superb talent and natural ability. Lacking the later I tried the former.

What I learned from the entire process is that it is not the arrow or bow as much as the ability to adjust as you get older. A good shooter can shoot any bird in a number of ways and pick and choose which one he uses as needed. I have learned how to spot shoot low six when I flinch quickly or ride it out if I flinch late, shoot high two with a swing through after a great flinch and shoot low five with a sustained lead after another flinch. All because of great gun fit and more spasms than a fish flopping out of water.

But all modesty aside, every fitter sees something different and stresses what works for him. So if you have had a fitting and are not seeing results, get fit again. And as you get older do not think that it was a "lifetime" fitting. Work past rotatory surgery and you will learn how to mount guns differently. Get old and fat or loose flexibility due to neck, back, hip or knee problems and you have to make adjustments. You learn and adjust or just hit so few birds you tell people you just are there to watch the dog work. My dog likes retrieving more than running around and watching me miss birds.

I intend to see how much I have learned tomorrow when I get to shoot a few released pheasants with my middle son. He gets to shoot my Lefever 12 and selected a Ithica NID 20 for me. Bragging rights are at stake and he hates to loose. Just like I did 30 plus years ago. Perhaps I get a fitting for him on his next birthday.

A.W. Tozer, We Travel an Appointed Way, paraphrased by Joe Wood
"In a world like ours, we need to master the art and keep at the business of dismissing distractions."

I once foolishly bought a BT-99 Plus trap gun; fully adjustable everything. Spent 4 weeks adjusting and changing and shooting (poorly) while thinking about what I had just changed and what to change next Saw the light, gave up, and sold the thing.

Heraclitus � 'No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man' also applies to gun fitting.

Drew - that link you posted previously was one of the more intersting and informative things I have read here. Great compilation of historical information.

Like chokes, barrel lengths, gun weight, grips, DTs vs STs, ribs, vertical vs. horizontal - gunfitting is yet another topic ripe for obsession. But just because it can become another obsessive distraction doesn't mean it isn't worth some attention. You can buy a gun and adjust yourself to shoot it well or buy a gun that is adjusted for you to shoot it well. Your money and your choice.

I am going to echo what KY Jon, Drew Hause, Crowley and others have said:

The biggest mistake people make when it comes to gun fitment is to think that there is some set of stock dimensions out there that are the perfect numbers for them for all time on everything in all situations.

In actuality, the best stock dimensions are a compromise of various attributes, and change as the shooter's mount evolves, the type of gun changes, the shooting/hunting situation varies, etc. In other words, what works best for shooting overhead driven birds will not be best for walked-up pointed birds will not be best in a duck blind will not be best in a layout goose blind, not to mention the many different clay games, etc.

Of all the major stock dimensions we worry about, LOP is the least important and most flexible. Put another way, whatever LOP a person shoots best is the best LOP under those circumstances. Hewing to some rule like "half the length of you index finger" or "hold the gun in the crook of you elbow" as if that is the absolute best way to determine LOP probably causes more harm than good because it closes the shooter's mind to trying different LOPs to see what works best for him. Although the ambiguity is frustrating to a new shooter, you just have to experiment with different LOPs to find what works for you. For proof of the variability of LOP, look at all the different LOPs used by the various good shooters in Drew Hause's post.

The bottom line on LOP is that it is a balance between the ease (or comfort) of mounting a shorter LOP gun vs. the improved pointability of the longer LOP gun (ignoring the obvious problems at the extremes).

Examples of LOP choices: 1) if you "aim" rather than "point" your shotgun, you will probably be more interested in a comfortable LOP rather than a more pointable gun; 2) As your mount improves, you can better handle a longer LOP gun and thus can take advantage of the improved pointability of a longer LOP; 3) Generally, the lighter a gun, the easier it is to mount and thus the longer the LOP can be; 4) If you are shooting premounted, ease-of-mount becomes less important, and the shooter may choose to use a really long LOP to eke out every last bit of pointability. None of these are absolutes, and the variations are practically endless.

I am 6'1", 220lbs, wear a 16x36 dress shirt, and am far from being an expert shooter. For now I have settled on a 15-3/4" LOP for my ~6lb 16ga SxS with double triggers for hunting, but I am pretty much satisfied with any LOP in the 15" range.

JMHO

Lot of good, solid, anecdotal observations. I stand by my original statement on GrouseGunner's fitting.
JR

Gunfit is very much like selecting a new bed mattress!
It really boils down to what you are comfortable with and does the best job for you.
Probably the ideal length is that which allows you to mount the gun efficiently from below the armpit, up into the shoulder without snagging the heel of the stock on your clothing during the gunmount.
An approximate indicator of correct fit is to have a distance of about 1 & 1/2" inches between base of thumb of trigger hand and your nose.
Many 'expert' gun fitters make the mistake of getting the customer to mount the gun and then to check eye alignment on the rib by getting the customer to reposition their head on the comb to suit. This eye alignment is the correct sight picture but is not necessarily the correct stock length.The only true way to get a good gun fit is at the shooting ground, mounting and shooting at moving targets. In my honest opinion of course. According to my Wife I have been known to be wrong on most occasions.