doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Belgian Clunker or other

Had a gun delivered to me today for comment. This is a new one to me. I first thought that it is just another Belgian Clunker with deceit in it's background but I may be wrong. Gun is a 12 gauge SXS. Boxlock with scalloped back, Greener style cross bolt, dual Purdey style underbolts, Deeply engraved breech balls with a vine motif, Side Clips, Full coverage engraving on action, trigger guard, - tight rose and scroll motif, checkered side panels, drop points, nice circassian walnut stock and fore end with 28 lpi checkering
Barrel proofs: Star over N , ELG in vertical oriented oval surmounted by a crown, what appears to be an eagle in flight with spread wings and tail feathers, a R surmounted by crown, an X surmounted by a small star, 12 over C in a diamond, D = 70 / 20.6 , All of the numerical markings are recognized for what they. Now some interesting stuff. Barrel is engraved within a long oval relieved into the rib " EMIL KERNER, SUHL "
The action flat is proof marked as is the barrel flats with what appears to be a tower on a base or perhaps something else - looks like a stick on a flat diamond - along with the aforementioned star over X. The barrels have very strong damascus pattern with a lot of colour contrast black and silver and you can easily feel the pattern while running your finger along it. The pattern is one with which I am not familiar and I first thought it was one of the "faux damascus barreled guns" however a touch of blue remover under the fore end indicates that it really is damascus, it has a very intricate pattern. The rib is also nicely engraved, a gold "SUR" at the safety button. Anson style fore end release, Ejectors, 74 cm long barrels. This appears NOT to be a low grade crapper as the inletting and fit of wood to metal is very good. Anyone want to venture who the Maker was? I don't want to tell my friend he has JABC when he may have something much better. It sure looks better than any JABC that I have seen. I will attempt photos tomorrow but if anyone can offer any insight I appreciate the help. Thanks Slate

The maker was.... EMIL KERNER od Suhl!

I have a lovely Emil Kerner 16ga with a blitz action, 29" bbls. weigh about 5#10oz. Definitely NOT a Belgian Klunker, rather, a well made German double. Imported by VL&D for the US Market.

The German city of Suhl is one of the oldest centers of firearm manufacture in Europe.

Recoil Rob, Well I appreciate the input. I dug out my proof identification books - I had forgotten where they were - anyway the gun carries both German and Belgian proof marks. Very interesting. I had thought that the SUHL reference may have been a deceit but it seems not.

A lot of damascus barrels were made in Belgium and used by the rest ofthe world, Germany, England, the U.S. Usually the quality of the gun was indicative of the Belgian damascus, i.e. a gunmaker with a reputation to protect was only going to use high grade Belgian barrels.

I would imagine the Beligian proofs are first proofs and the final proofs are German.

What serial number is the gun?

The Crown over the R indicates a rifled bore. There was also a maker's a mark that was a backwards F joined to an R with a crown that was used by Renkins & Son. The 12 over C in a diamond would date the gun between 1898 and 1924. All the proofs you described are Belgian. The gun sounds very interesting. It sounds like a well made gun with German barrels.

If you have pictures, please post them.

Pete

At this point, it sounds like a Liege gun retailed by Kerner. Not all Belgian guns are JABC's. They made some really, really good stuff. This one sounds to be in the better stuff. Not a JABC, IMO. Photos, please.

Generally speaking, though as always there may be exceptions, the D = 70/20.6 was used from 1892 - 1923 only on those guns which had been submitted for "Voluntary" smokeless powder proof, though you do not indicate a PV mark. This mark indicated a chamber length of 70mm (2 3/4") having a diameter of 20.6mm (.811") just forward of rim seat. This of course varied as to actual chamber dimensions.

Agree with Rocketman. From the proofmarks described, the only thing German about the gun is the importer or dealer who marketed it. Does not sound at all like JABC. The Belgians made a lot of nice guns for export, with the importer/dealer on the other end putting his name on the gun. I just sold a 16ga marked "C. Mode a Paris"--and that was the only thing French about the gun. Very nice quality BLNE, but all the proofmarks were Belgian.

I stand corrected, should have decipered the proof marks myself. My Kerner has nothing but German proofs. Glad it's not a klunker.

I just re-read your description. I see that you mention an eagle. That is most likely the makers trade mark. Many believe that every time they see an eagle it must be a Prussian / German mark. Here is just a partial list of Belgian makers who used an eagle at some point as their trade mark.

eagle with two heads holding a ribbon in its greenhouses Kaufmann Jules and Sons
eagle with the spread wings surrounded of initial Extra "Al" and "Steel" Lochet Arnold
eagle with the wings raised towards the head Janssen Joseph
eagle two headed holding a ribbon in its greenhouses with the inscription "Trade Mark" Schaeffer & kaufmann
eagle comprising initial "A" in the left wing and "G" in the right wing Francotte Auguste
eagle enclosing flashes Limited company for the manufacture of weapons has fire
eagle looking at on the left with the word Adler Pieper B S.A.(Anciens Establishments)
eagle being posed on a map of the world Genschow Gustav & Co
eagle holding the mark Condor in the beak Kaufmann Jules and Sons
eagle holding a snake in its beak Manufacture Liégeoise of weapons with fire
eagle on a cut trunk Janssen Joseph
eagle open wings Dumoulin Fernand
wide eagle with the wings comprising in the medium of the body initial "the L&T" Dawdler and Theate
crowned two headed eagle Bertrand Antoine
two headed eagle crowned with the letter R in the body Bertrand Antoine
two headed eagle crowned with a star in the body Bertrand Antoine
eagle looking towards the left in a circle Cape Joseph

Just in this partial list, there are some makers that produced more that a few quality guns.

Pete