doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Anyone know of blown up barrels?

All of us on this forum seek to be knowledgeable and safe with our Doubleguns we ask questions, we get barrel walls measured, we adhere to advice of what you that have the knowledge recommend. Thank you all for that. For every one of us that follows this advice there must be dozens who are in total ignorance of any guidelines for shooting safe loads in old guns.
I seldom see displays or testimonies of blown apart barrels excepting an occasional one with what appear to have had obstructions. Perhaps I have just missed them in my short time being involved with them. How many of you can testify to an occurance of blown up barrels? I am not attempting to downplay being safe. It took me a long time to be convinced it was OK to shoot Damascus (had them inspected and wall thickness measured)and I adhere to all advice given here.
But again what about the many that don't know any better.
Just curious Thank you.

In 40 years involvement with shooting, I know of only two instances of a burst/bulged barrel directly to someone I know;

The first was my Father, who got a bulged barrel due to an obstruction (snow). The gun was a low grade s/s, probably Belgian.
The second was due to (almost certainly) wad left by a misfire obstructing the barrel, causing a burst. The gun was a good Birmingham gun.

I have heard (anecdotally) of a few other instances, but never with much detail.

I have seen several examples exhibited at shows etc., notably the result of 20 bore cartridges in 12 bore barrels.

I have also seen a friends (by a good well known maker) modern o/u sheared through the action. Manufacturer replaced without question.

Probably not what you were looking for but at the local gun club a friend was shooting an off-brand European semi-auto and had a barrel burst. Not but a couple of inches down from the chamber. He was injured and has not fully recovered full function. The burst was several years ago.

Joe Wood or SkeetTX Mike might fill in some details.

Two (in fifty years).

A Charles Lancaster damascus double that had both tubes blocked with snow/mud and bulged just aft of the muzzles; the barrels were cut back and the gun continued in use. During WWII when ammunition and meat were equally scarce it was employed for deer shooting with home bodged cartridges loaded with ball bearings; you can see the score marks to this day. Bubba is not just American and he is certainly very old.

A modern era AYA double which bulged on one side of the right barrel; cause unknown (or not admitted to!) but I suspect it was fed on steel shot and didn't like it. A gunsmith knocked it down and it's still in regular use.

Eug

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17546456
You will note most of the barrels are fluid steel, and ruptured from an obstruction



I've posted on several forums the offer of $100 to anyone who will send me a pattern welded barrel that 'unwound like a spring'. Welds can fracture however.



There have been several threads on trapshooters.com about blown up K-guns. Every instance has been with handloads.

One. An friend was given a Charles Boswell damascus gun. He asked me about shooting it and I told him all the usual precautions and warned him to use low pressure only, and suggested powders and loads. He modified a MEC to 2 1/2" and prepared to reload shells for it. He said he was going to use Unique, which I strongly opposed. He said the reloading manuals had about a 20% fudge factor, and he wanted to use up the Unique.

The right chamber blew out after about 6-8 rounds. No one was injured, but the escaping gas hit another shooter standing beside the box pulling the targets. He said it felt like someone slapped him in the face.

He claims it was a stuck basewad, to this day.

SRH

never saw one happen - but have seen three just after the fact -

one an old low grade American double with fluid steel - the shooter admitted to snow in the barrel - had not checked it after going thru a snowy hedgerow

one at an early Vintagers - the small bore damascus was taken out for a test shoot and a barrel split- then someone measured it and it was paper thin

third was at a gunsmiths, twist barrel split on top 2/3rd down and again- paper thin after being reamed

these last two were thin enough they have been damaged by a strong grip or setting them in the rack too hard.

I have an H grade Lefever with a cracked barrel looking somewhat like Drew pictured. I bought it as a parts gun many years ago. The crack is 14 inches up from the breech. It is about a 7� lb gun with 30" barrels so walls are not extra thin, haven't actually measured them. The appearance when I got it was that it had been struck against a sharp object & dented in & possibly cracked from the impact. It appeared to then have been subsequently fired. One side of the crack was still inward into the bore but the other side had been lifted outward leaving a substantial gap between the two. I placed an expanding dent plug under it & raised the dented in portion & hammered down that which was sprung out. The two edges of the crack meshed back together to the extent it took very careful examination to even see the crack was there. In this condition I taped up the cracked stock & carried it out & placed it in the old Firestone proof chamber. With a string attached to the trigger & from behind a good sized tree I proceeded to fire off several regular factory 3�-1 1/8 oz loads. With no apparent change in it I then proceeded to fire several more factory 3 3/4-1� oz "High Brass" loads. Still nothing. I then fired a few handloads containing approximately a 3� DE charge of "Unique" powder under 1 3/8 oz shot. Through all of this the crack did not open back up at all nor was there even a smudge of powder visible on the outside. This all occurred more than 30 years ago. I still have the old Lefever, have never needed a part from it, & can presently only locate the crack because I know where to look, & really need the assistance of a magnifying glass to be certain of its location. The tree was cut & sold about 7 years ago & I have no idea what became of the old tire I used. I have never, incidentally fired this gun from my shoulder, just because I know that its pre-cracked.

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The right hand barrel of a Henry Clarke BLE blew just in front of my father's left hand. This happened in 1968 at the shoot both he and I still belong to. He was most fortunate not to have lost his hand. New barrels were fitted to the gun and I still use it myself. It had been bought new in 1928 by my great-grandfather.

The Birmingham proof house inspected the blown barrels and declared that there had probably been a fault in the steel during manufacture. The barrels were displayed in WAGBI's Chamber of Horrors at Game Fairs during the 1970s. They now hang in the shoot lunch hut. I give them a clean and grease every five years or so.

Tim

Ain't no thang dude.

Just give 'em barrels ta ed good.

They'll be good as nu in no time!

I've seen one, and I've seen the results (to the shooter) of another one.

The one I saw was a Fox 20ga. Much like the first Parker Sherman Bell blew up with his high pressure destruction tests, reported in Double Gun Journal, but in reverse. That Parker blew from the hole where the extractor fits under the rib towards the outside. The Fox in question blew from the hole where the guide pin for the extractor rides, on the outside of the right chamber, peeling back in towards the rib. The only possible obstruction might have been a base wad, but the shooter believes--on checking other shells in the box of reloads he was shooting--that he managed to double charge a shell.

The other one I know of was a modern Spanish double by a well-respected maker. I saw the damage to the shooter's hand. Inspection of the barrels at the point where the failure occurred showed a wall thickness of something like .005. Must've been a barrel boring error that somehow still managed to pass proof.

Stan, wondering about your objection to Unique. I don't use it in target reloads, but I have worked up a 12ga low pressure hunting load (7300 psi, 1 1/8 oz) that I occasionally use for pheasants in a vintage double.

Larry,

I've loaded many lbs. of Unique, myself. But, knowing this fella's tendency to "push the envelope", I suggested something I deemed to be less dangerous for him. I got him to give me the rest of the shells he had loaded. I'll try to remember to cut one open and weigh the charge. I'd be willing to bet it was above the max load recommended for modern guns, and I also knew he was going to be using compression formed hulls, which I also advised him against. Fact is, he just didn't believe high breech pressure would blow a chamber. He still doesn't, most likely.

Unique is a good, but dirty, powder. But, it certainly isn't my first choice for low pressure loads. YMMV.

SRH

Thanks, Stan. Cutting one open would be an interesting test. I've had good results with the Unique loads I've shot at pheasants, but I tend to go in the other direction re the "envelope". And there are certainly better choices than Unique, from both pressure and fouling standpoints, for target loads.

Not blown barrel but bulged cokes. I was using my Savage 311 on a duck hunt and ran out of shells. (this was back in the late 1990's when is was still legal to shot lead at migratory birds) My friend passed me few shells which I loaded and shot only to find they were 3" steel and of course the cokes within 2 inches of the muzzle bulged on both barrels.

I had a 682 Beretta top barrel turn loose while shooting five stand. I wasn't hurt. It was one of my reloads produced on my Spolar reloader. The barrel turned loose about six inches ahead of the chamber and peeled the rib up at about 90 degrees. I only reload one combination and use Remington STS hulls. Still don't have a clue why the barrel burst. I loaded thousands before that occurance and thousands since then without problems.

Interesting stuff. As I said we on this site attempt to use caution and adhere to certain limitations on loads for old guns.
I have done not too intelligent things. I shot a couple boxes through badly pitted bores. Had it miked to find out there were spots thinner than recommended minimums. I will no longer shoot it, but I did and it did not fail. I see stupid things dove shooters do. Shoot low, shoot towards buildings, shoot closer than 1/4 mi to houses,seen a guy yesterday shooting 22 rifle and a hi power rifle in the dove field with no backstop. Point being
besides odd occurrences there are a lot of STUPID people out there. I am guessing that these gun barrels will take a hell of a lot of abuse.

Double Gun Journal, volume four, issue 3, Autumn of 1993. "The Life, Times, and Rebirth of Greener Empire Gun # 63419".
Very complete article, with description of how, why, and resulting maiming of both gun and hunter.

Best,
Ted

Scary how thin even a normal barrel is that is considered "safe". I am amazed how casual many shooters I am familiar with treat the ammunition they put into them. And some of the reloads are plumb scary! But somehow the guns usually stay in one piece. One feller here did experience catastrophic failure of his Verona O/U using reloads and I think his data was good. The gun blew right at the junction of the monoblock and resulted in horrible nerve and muscle damage to his left arm. He will never fully recover use of it. I examined the barrel and was amazed how thin the metal was at the junction of the monoblock and the sharp edges that it had. Seems to me this type of construction just invites failure though millions have been made with no problem. Oh, Verona never said anything or offered new barrels. Stony silence.

Joe I thought Dennis was shooting a semi-auto!

What is the problem with compression formed hulls?
Thanks

Parker Trojan 20ga.




Muzzle is to the left. Missing section starts about 5 inches from the muzzle.
It came to me this way, I have no idea what caused it.

Wall looks thin, I never bothered to measure it. It's not like it makes a difference at this point.
.

Interesting to see two examples above where the rupture is at or near the rib to barrel solder joint. And it is always a shock to see the corrosion accumulated in the dead space between the ribs.

Which reinforces my dislike for ribs, yet again. Ribs are an abomination.

Reloads, you probably won't get much satisfaction from the gun maker. Factory shells, it's legal action time if they don't do something and if there was some material flaw with the gun.

Nothing, when used properly. I would rather reload them than most others. But, when you're trying to build a low pressure load it is just easier to begin with another type, like the ribbed hulls with a fiber base wad, or even paper hulls. Given all the same other components, a compression formed hull will almost always deliver higher pressures.

Knowing his penchant for them, I suggested otherwise but, alas and alack, he did not listen. He may have had a hot enough load to blow up the Boswell even if they had not been in AAs, we'll never know, but they certainly did not help the pressure situation any.

I'm NOT saying you can't build a great low pressure load with compression formed hulls. I sent some to Tom Armbrust this spring loaded in Gold STSs that went 1180 fps at 5100 psi.

SRH

Stan, what was the shot charge in those very low pressure loads?

I can think of just five:

A 12 bore AyA magnum in which someone fired a steel load through the choke barrel; it now has a nice wide trumpet choke!

A single barrel 12 bore Italian made gun that a Farmer kept in the cow shed window for the odd pot shot at vermin. He kept a rag stuffed down the muzzle to stop dirt and spiders going down. Some kid found it and the cartridges and fired it but omitted to remove the rag. The last 12 inches of barrel parted company and spun round and clocked the kid on the head. Gave him a good scare and the Farmer one too!

An Italian over/under (I can't recall the make) where the barrel just blew open about 14 inches from the breech. The metal was so thin it could be bent easily by hand. How it passed Proof in Italy is a mystery.

A Midland Gun Co. side by side that I sent for Proof in Birmingham and then sold on. The new owner had it for a while when the barrel bulged and split. I sent it off to the Proof House for a detailed investigation and report. Their conclusion was that a stuck wad had caused the barrel to bulge and the next shot had been too much and caused the final split. It went just in front of the forend and no injury caused. In fact the firer was unaware until someone at te clay shoot pointed it out.

The fifth involves a German military Mauser rifle. The owner had some war surplus ammo which was dirty. He decided to put it in a case tumbler to clean it up. The rifle was smashed to pieces, stock smashed, bolt blown out and the receiver bent beyond repair. By a miracle there was no injury sustained. My theory is that the case tumbled ammo had the powder inside broken up into a fine powder which increased the burn rate alarmingly. That rifle was one hell of a mess. Lagopus.....

Larry,

Sorry to be so long in replying. Been out all day.

They are 1 oz. loads. P.M. me if you'd like more details.

All my best, SRH

Thanks, Stan. Just wondering about the shot charge. Not much difficulty getting low pressure 7/8 oz or 1 oz loads. A little tougher when you go to 1 1/8 oz.

I'd hope everyone pays attention to what Lagopus has posted about that rifle failure.

I'll relate a similar tale that involved an individual shooting a factory 12 ga. 32 gram shot shell that had been rolling back & forth on the dashboard of a pickup truck for quite a while, a few years in the Texas heat & cold. It was fired at a rattlesnake in a modern pump shotgun w/double action bars & it blew the receiver and the back [chamber] portion of that gun up. It was a catastrophic failure & resulted in destruction of the first order. It did not result in an injury, but could have just as easily, IMHO. It is quite likely that the powder in that cartridge had become 'dust' and as such had zero deterrent and an exponetially increased surface area. In other words, the powder detonated rather than burned. FWIW, The dif in defs between burning and detonation in the simplest of terms is the speed or burning rate, if you will.

I've not ever witnessed a blown barrel per se, but I have two double guns with minor swells or bulges toward the muzzle that were likely the result of some sort of obstruction. In both cases it happened when I'd loaned the guns to others. My bad. Neither of them ruptured, nor did they cause the ribs to become loose. Neither swell is noticable when shooting the guns, but both are when looking inside the barrels or along the affected barrel's outside. Both are before the chokes and neither changed the POI or patterns. I have shot hundreds, if not thousands of rounds through them both since over the years w/zero issues & am not concerned about doing so in the least. Greener addressed that issue w/his thin muzzle [.010" barrel thickness] emperical work long before there was an effective measuring devise. Pressures at the muzzle are simply not great enough to distort thin walls. Bonking them and causing a distortion or dent is another matter altogether.

With apologies for the tangent, but perhaps its within the limits of acceptable thread drift.

I don't know how I got in this mode. I had the top barrel on a Remington 32 blowup. I think there was a powder detonation. I was shooting the low house on Station 3 at skeet. The shell had been recently reloaded. I think there was a short drop of powder and then the loader did not full seat the wad, leaving an air space. The excess air provided oxygen for a detonation. Thee was not an excessive recoil, in fact, I remember no recoil. I still have the barrels and the shell casing.

Thanks for posting this. You guys may have saved me a ruptured barrel and potential injury. I have an old 12ga shell that I found in the back of a cargo van that I traded for. I thought "what the heck" and threw it in my range box. Was planning to shoot it next time out. I think instead I'll cut it open and reclaim the shot. Will let you know what the powder looks like.

A member of the LCSCA just talked with H.P. White Laboratory, in Maryland. They will proof Damascus barrels for $500 to a pressure of 20,000 psi, or the pressure desired, and will allow the owner to watch the procedure www.hpwhite.com
He has not yet decided whether to proceed, and if someone here does use the service, please let us know how things work out.

Pressure testing it to his order will give him peace of mind....but for how long. As recommended, he should have the barrels wall thickness checked especially in the critical areas and shoot low pressure low velocity loads that are under 8,000 psi.

For us that own old sxs it is almost imperative to reload your own to say within this range.

It would be nice if they stated how many rounds they put through your barrels for this testing.

When I first started trying to reload in the 60s, I had an Ithaca Model 37 twenty gauge. As it turned out, the end of my reloading session left a shell with no shot. The nest time out I fired the shotless shell , and then another. You know what happened. The wad from the first firing had stuck [near the choke] and the second shot exploded the barrel similar to the banana peel fashion one used to see in cartoons. I do remember it took much effort to saw off the damaged portion [about 6 inches]. Very tough steel.

This happened to a buddy this season. He had just picked the gun up from Cabelas and was shooting it in preparation for a grouse hunt with me the next weekend. A 16ga Remington 48. Factory load. No one was hurt, fortunately.