doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Older Belgian 12-bore with 30" bbls & 3" chambers

I really need to stop browsing Guns International for a few months. Noticed this old Belgian double last week and made the call to Cabela's in Owatonna. It struck me as maybe a cut or two above the typical Belgian field gun, despite being listed without a maker's name. What really got me interested, though, was the combination of 30-inch barrels and 3-inch chambers. I emailed the seller to check the proofs, and sure enough, it's marked "12-75" indicating 75-mm (2.95") chambers and proofing some time after 1924. The gun weighs 6.75-pounds, a fairly typical weight for a European game gun, but it seems set up as a waterfowl gun with full choke in both barrels and seemingly chambered for heavy loads. The right chamber has an importer's mark: Duffy's Inc. Sparks, MD. Duffy's Gun Room is still in business in Sparks, but I haven't been able to learn much about them. Dropped them an email but haven't heard back. Does anyone have any info on Belgian imports by Duffy? More broadly, when would 3-inch chambers have been offered on Belgian guns coming to the States? Any information or informed speculation would be welcome!
Bill

I had a Neuman 12 bore made between the wars that had the same style "feather engraved" action bolster and crossbolt third fastener.

The gun reminds me of a Francotte knock about in terms of quality. 3" chambers started showing up after WWI. Not to say there none before that.

The FULL and FULL choking was common back then. They had a belief that you could hit further with a FULL choke,

Pete

That could make an outstanding clays gun with the right bbl opened a smidge and loads of 1 oz or less. The 3" has been around for quite some time - Brits used it as the hull for 1 1/4 oz loads.

DDA

I looked at some photos of Neumann doubles and a some of them had those distinctive bolsters. It will be fun to try to decipher the marks.

Pete, I took a look around your website. Wonderful stuff there! Gorgeous pics and a trove of info, including lots about French & Belgian marks!

I was going to ask if anyone had an idea of what the intended load for a 3-inch 6.75-pound gun would have been around 1930. I was thinking that 1 1/4 oz would be the heaviest I'd think of for this gun, and I'm not sure I'd even go that high. I'd guess 1 1/8 would be okay in the field and lighter for targets.

Any thoughts on using 2.5" shells in a 3-inch gun? Randy Wakeman among others describes pattern degradation for 2.75" sells out of 3.5" chambers. I ask because my other 12 is a 2.5" gun. I plan to spend some time at the pattern board this winter and spring with all my guns, but I'd be interested in hearing about the experience of others.

Bill

As I recall during the period of time the British proof houses stamped the barrels with the shot load proofed for they were as follows in 12 gauge;
2.5" - 1 1/8oz; 2 3/4" = 1�oz & 3" = 1�oz.
The actual shells were loaded with shot weights both heavier & lighter warranted for use in a gun having proper chamber length of the shell.

I will check my source material and see if I have loads for Belgium. In the meantime, Miller is certainly correct.

Pete

1924
Gauge Powder Shot
______grams grams
12ga
Ordinary 15 58
Double__19 77
Triple___18 90

I can find nothing that indicates Belgium had a proof load for 3" chambers during this period.

Pete

This proofing must assuredly have been done with black powder. With charges running from about 8� drams & 2 oz of shot to over 10 drams with more than 3 oz of shot it is simply inconceivable that Smokeless would have been used in these amounts. Particularly if the double or triple proof were used one might think this would have been adequate for the 3" chambered gun.

You did well. It's nice shotgun capable of digesting American-made 70mm game loads which are ubiquitous.