doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Breech Seating

Brent when we talk about performance have to define it first. Lot of rifles will shoot small groups sometimes. Most of the small groups claims by modern bolt gun builders are 3 shot at 100 yards. Magazines are full of Sub MOA Claims. I don�t have my old Stevens-Pope Specialties catalog in front of me, if memory serves the guarantee was 10 in 3 � inches at 200 yards.

If the modern builders measured 10 shot at 200 yards I don�t think many would go under 1 moa. I shot Hunter class HP Silhouette for years with several rifles all factory barrels and never had one that would shoot sub MOA 10 shot 200 yard groups. Close but not reliable under MOA long run. Get a few even half a dozen one or two always throw out of the group before you get 10. Skinny barrel and round bottom stock is the culprit. Side by side same conditions the modern hunter style bolt gun using jacketed bullets will outshoot a cast bullet single shot but not by much.

Not telling you anything you don�t know however. Show up on match day shoot in a timed relay and score 10 shots it�s very difficult. 250�s = � MOA at 200 yards. Single Shot rifle matches sub MOA is very difficult to produce only fired by the best outfits well handled. Match rules in Schuetzen allow fixed ammo no one shooting bench Schuetzen serious uses fixed. Rules don�t allow jacketed bullets if they did you would not see any cast bullets on the line.

Like you I don�t think the 2 piece stock or even the falling block is a disadvantage, the jacketed bullet is an advantage.

Boats

MP,
Thanks for the article. I have a pretty good understanding of how to do it as I've been reading the ASSRA website for many years. I shot my first match this August with fair results.
Your groups had me very interested because that Ballard outfit looks to be using a push seater. A couple of guys at the match said that it didn't seem to take much effort to seat my bullet and most of them were using Weber style seaters. That's why I was asking how much effort you needed when shooting those groups. My bullet's 2nd driving band just touches the lands when pushed in from the muzzle but doesn't leave any marks untill the 4th band when breech seating. There must be quite a bit of taper in the barrel and that's what made me wonder if I needed a larger diameter bullet. I'm going to do a chamber cast this winter and see what's happening there.
I'm sure a lot has to with my bench technique and shooting arrangement as well. I also notice that you shoot with your barrel up against the forearm. Another thing to try.

Bob,

Technique can be the determining factor in a good or great group.
I had a 44 1/2 Stevens that was really tough to shoot accurately being extremely sensitive to butt pressure and barrel placement on the front pad. On the other hand, a Ruger No 1 I owned in .32-40 was more than forgiving on technigue.

Ken

"I'm sure a lot has to with my bench technique and shooting arrangement as well. I also notice that you shoot with your barrel up against the forearm. Another thing to try."

My first fifteen years learning the Schuetzen rifle was on my home range behind the house. One summer I spent doing nothing but resting the forend or barrel in about every position possible including a sled.

What I came away from all this was I shoot the rifle better with the barrel on a hard (called brick bag sometimes) bag with the forend just touching. I don't believe this does anything other than making sure the rifle is in the same position EVERY-TIME.

To get good results everything you do from loading to how you hold the rifle must be the same each and every time.


In my experience a single-shot rifle shooting a jacketed bullet shoots better off the forearm. All lead bullet rifle I always test both was and end up on the barrel.

We put a .22LR barrel on my Niedner False-Barrel Stevens 44 1/2 that's chambered in .22-short.

One morning when it was calm I tried both barrel and forearm rest, five five-shot groups.

I'm always forgetting something and one morning I left my wind flags at home and thought what the heck, conditions don't look bad.

Your vertical is superb. You've definately found the sweet spot for that rifle. Thank you for the help. We got our 1st snow yesterday so now it's a long wait to try new things.

Like the last time I shot my iron sighted Marlin 38-55, a 2" group at 100~~~
8" tall.

Boats, I'm fairly well versed in statistical analyses, so I can compare apples and apples. I can pick up one of my father-in-laws new Rugers, Coopers, or even a Bushmaster and, with his well-tuned ammo, I can shoot well under 1 moa for 10 shots any day of the week. I don't see that with the best benchrest breech seating shooters except on pretty rare occasion. It makes me question the superiority of breech seating in general.

The chamber that MP showed us for his .25 cal Niedner jumps out at me as a particularly interesting idea and I wonder if others have ever followed that vein of experimentation.

Meanwhile, I continue to be amazed at the accuracy that the modern rifleman can achieve without building loads at the bench, w/o using a single case over and over, and w/o breech seating. I wonder if all that stuff is really needed. If it is, how does one explain the phenomenal accuracy of modern, mass produced rifles?

Brent,
The"phenomal accuracy of modern, mass produced rifles"(and ammo, as well)is largely due to all those who went before and by the fruits of their own labor and imagination learned what it took to be accurate.The makers of modern rifles and ammo stand on their backs.There is no doubt in my "military mind" that these pioneers would be very happy with the results and would encourage further work.
Mike