doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com SKB vs. Webley&Scott

Well Mike I believe you, from a former HVAC contractor, (retired) I believe you have a practical knowledge of lots of uh, stuff

Wouldn't a 172 be sweet for what it is really worth! As in before the product liability is added in.

Back to work. Anybody have a 12 ga. W&S 700 to measure up?!

Chief

With all respect to Diggory, I suspect many human inventions (knife, fork, chopsticks?) have been copied in greater numbers than the Anson and Deeley box lock shotgun action.

Well, OK. I think Diggory was/is talking about a far-more complex device than a fork. But to a large degree, I think he's right. Almost all of the American shotgun designs (other than the Smiths and early Lefevers) are varients of the A&D (and I do hope I'm quoting him correctly here!). Certainly, most post-1890 European designs are A&Ds, unless, of course, they are sidelocks. Early-on, some of them might have paid for the use of the design, but I suspect that most did not. Certainly not after patent-protection expired.

First off many of these American variants are A&D copies "Only" in the fact they are Box Locks & are not direct copies. Box Lock guns were in use prior to the A&D patents,even back into the flint era, so every Box Lock is not automatically an A&D copy. "IF" you want to spread it that broad then every wheel in existence is a copy of the original wheel.
I think it best just to say the A&D is the most copied firearm in existence & leave it at that. There are many mechanical mechanisms which have been widely copied other than the simple ones illustrated. What about windshield wipers for instance.
While I don't have exact numbers for either I Very Highly suspect that Singer's Oscillating Shuttle, Ccentral Bobbin sewing machine has been copied in greater numbers than has the A&D shotgun. It debuted in the 1880's & is still being copied & produced today.

Dare I say it? Ok I will! I think you will find that the most copied truly mechanical device of all time is the �Time Piece� in its myriad of versions and forms. Even Galileo Galilei proposed his version of an escapement though it was not made during his life time like many of his ideas.

Comments about patents on the Webley 700 . Any such would have long expired by this time and as I seem to recall either the Japanese were not signatories to international paten agreements or they generally ignored them . In either case it would not have been relevant .

We are getting far-afield here. I believe Chief was looking to discuss the relative merits of machine-made copies of the A&D to the original design, or at least faithful, handmade copies. I've owned both types and my only knock on the machine-made versions would be weight and perhaps wrist-thickness because of the drawbolt.

Two Piper, I believe that the Harrington Richardson 1882, 1885-6 were exact < authorised by license > copies. Do you know of any others? Thanks sfq

I have heard that the japanese word for copy is the same as the japanese word for learn, and they certainly were shameless about copying other peoples work, much as the chinese are today.

Yes, that's close Lloyd. I have looked at the SKB and to a lesser degree some of the Miroku guns. The most basic Model 100 SKB is usually acceptably light and could be, with a little work much lighter. The Miroku/Browning BSS is normally on the heavier side. As the SKB guns moved up through the higher grades they gained weight due to longer BT forends and ejectors. The later SKB's with choke tubes are not part of my observations. One of the things with the Ithaca/SKB guns is a high, flat rib as compared to a game type rib that would be the norm on a W&S gun.

I look at quite a few guns for sale with a very critical eye on weight. It would appear that most English box lock guns are 5 1/2 to 6 # in a 20 or sometimes a 16 ga. will be right around 6# plus or minus a couple ounces. Nice and light. The problem for me comes in with the care and feeding of them. Some enjoy the process of reloading, I do not. I do know that there are companies that cater to the short/light/low faction. In my own lazy or practical manner I like being able to go just about anywhere and pick up a box of 20's or 12's and have a hunt.

As I stated above, aesthetics would almost always go to the hand finished gun.

To my original and to me most important question. I would like to compare the two gun's measurements. I am mostly interested in 12 ga guns. The dimensions of the 20 ga is useful to me also.

Chief