doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Trying ITX....what do you think? **patterns added*

I purchased a 1lb sample of itx to try out on woodies and teal. Short shots on devoting birds.

Because BP hasn't provided any low pressure load data I'm planning to keep the payload light. Has anyone tried 3/4oz 12ga loads with this stuff? I'm going to load 4 different shells tomorrow (2 powders 2 velocities each) and pattern them. These will be adaptations of lead target loads I shoot all the time.

I'll post the results but wanted to know if anyone else had tried this stuff in vintage doubles?

Thanks,
Pat

3/4 oz. on ducks, even woodies and teal? I'd count on having a good dog to retrieve. There's gonna be a lot of wounded birds, IMO.

I have been down the .410 road for doves, and seen the difference in the number of wounded birds when going from 7/8 oz. of shot to 11/16 oz.(and even to 1/2 oz.). I understand the argument that you will restrict your shots to close range, I did, too. But, I am willing to bet you will see a big difference in the number of non-dead hits between 3/4 oz. and 1 1/8 oz., on close range woodies and teal. Woodies are tenacious of life little suckers. They just don't quit.

My reasoning is this, if 1/2 oz. of lead is the absolute minimum for doves inside 25 yds., which weigh 4-6 oz., and you get a very high percentage of cripples even then, 3/4 oz. of ITX is not enough for a woodie that weighs 1 1/2 lbs., at the same distance.

JMHO, SRH

I have shot bluebills at 30 yards with 3/4 oz of #3 steel and it did the job. After thirty yards and at big ducks forget it.


Bill

And big ducks if you have a good location, good decoy spread and know how to use a duck call
No sky-busting allowed!!

Mike

I have been playing with ITX throughout the summer and hunted MN opener this past weekend using 1 1/8 oz ITX loads - FIO hull 36 grains Steel powder. The load is rated at 8500 PSI but since I roll crimped it should have further reduced the pressure. I was impressed. Being from the school that you need 1 3/8 of shot it has been a real change for me to move to the smaller loads. I was using a 1938 3" 12 gauge Francotte that started life as a 27/8 inch 10 gauge. I took at drake mallard at 35+ and some teal at 25 yards - clean kills. I have found the ITX does not pattern well in my Husqvarna. I suspect the tight bores and thick wads are the issue. Eventually I'll pick up some of the thinner RIO wads to make some test loads for the Husky. I see the ITX books has load in the 1 oz - 7400 PSI range using PB powder. Good Luck

I guess my question about it is ......... why? Why would you want to shoot ducks with 3/4 oz. of anything when you can gain a much higher recovery rate with 1 1/8 oz. and up?

There is a big difference in the chances for recovery of a dove shot down crippled, in the middle of a field, and a duck on the water. Any duck hunter knows what they will do if they have enough life left to dive. Lost duck.

I'm not proposing that I have all the answers, fellas, but really, why?

SRH

I'm shooting ITX #4's 7/8 and 1 oz. with both plastic and stacked wads and find they work just fine on ducks, Mallard, Pintails and Widgeon here on the coast. But then my 1970's pre-freeze up load used to be an ounce of lead 7 1/2's and after freeze up jump shooting mallards on the creeks was an ounce of lead 5's .

Don't let anyone discourage you. I have used itx succesfully for 2 years. It is good stuff and cheaper than Bismuth. I would suggest using 7/8 or 1 oz unless you decoy them in close. #4's work real good. #6 for teal work fine and you can get by with less shot.
BP does have some low pressure loads in their manuals. If you need them, PM me.

I have used both 2 3/4" and 3" shells. 1 1/8 oz in 3" in my LC Long range will take ducks to 60 yards, if I do my part. Don't normally like to do that, but I chased a duck last year to at least 60 and he dropped like a rock. (I have a witness)

BTW I think roll crimps can raise pressure.

Jerry

What size shot are you using, Pat?

From my own experience, I'd say steel #4's are about the minimum for consistently clean kills on decoyed ducks, excepting teal where a smaller shot size can be used effectively if the birds are being taken close.

Stan & others are giving you sound advice about using more shot for better results.

When you look at the larger picture, inclusive of effort and overall cost to hunt ducks, it makes no sense to let the high cost of non-toxic shot become a deal beaker. I realize you are seeking a lower pressure solution, but it sounds like you are also loading 'blind' & that is not the best approach. Call BP or check with Alliant about the exact wad & primer to be using w/your shot & powder and keeping the pressures at a low or reasonable level. Both normally have more tested data than they publish.

All other things being equal, roll crimping slightly lowers pressure. Gil

I got 1lb of #4's to try out and pattern. I was planning on using 3/4oz mostly to keep the pressure down but if I can find 7/8oz recipes under 8k psi I'll try that. I may use 7/8oz of shot in a 1oz wad if space becomes an issue as well.

No patterning today as I had to put a starter in my truck.

So I loaded up a few shells today. Took longer than I thought but I learned a few things...
1) my 1oz Mec charge bar drops 3/4oz of itx 6 shot
2) it takes a 1oz wad to hold 3/4oz of itx

I loaded 3 different powders(15g extralite, 16g tightwad, and 16g clays ) keeping all other components the same.

3/4oz itx 6 shot (by weight)
CB1100 wad
Win 209 primer
Win AA hull

Below are the patterns tested at 35 yards in the more open choke of my Sterlingworth skeet and upland.

Extra-lite


Titewad


Clays


All loads were easy on recoil and should clock in around 1200fps if performance is anywhere near lead.

I am by no means an expert, I was nearly experimenting so take what you see for what it is.

Ithaca33,

You have gone the extra mile to pattern and try and determine whether the loads are suitable, or not. That is admirable. My opinion of the patterns is that I would not use any one of the loads on ducks at the distances they were shot at. The density necessary to put ducks down dead just is not there. What you have shown with the patterns is what I expected, patchiness and lack of density.

Good on you for going to the trouble to pattern.

SRH

I agree, I'm going to try again with 1oz loads. I was really surprised by how lite the recoil was with these 3/4oz loads so I think I'll be safe trying some 1oz ones.

My take on all of this is that i should just have bought nice shot in the first place and I think I'm going to when I get back from grouse camp. It's proven, and i know it'll kill ducks.

Usually larger shot will tighten a pattern, but then you have fewer shot.

I have been loading ITX in 10 ga for my Super 10 NID 2&7/8 and 10 ga NID mag 10 31/2. In both cases ITX patterns better with lighter shot weights then I would get from lead. I prefer #3 shot for Goose and Swan. Better patterning and clean kills

Not bad for the guns choking.

ITX Trials
I started with a 1950 Husqvana 615 12 gauge. Bores .117 & .718. Gun came choked Full and X-full. I drove the gun to a destination gun smith not far from Owatonna to have the chokes opened to IM and LM. Also had them ream the chamber to 3 inch which in retrospect was a waste of money as I can get all the performance I need with 23/4. I then patterned the gun using 11/8 and 11/4 ITX loads � relatively low pressure nothing over 9000 PSI. Results were horrible; as one of my friends stated where did the shot go? Unbelievably bad patterns. I then checked the gun it appears the smith never pushed the Gilchrist reamer all the way through the bore leaving a small lip at the end of the chokes. Gun also kicked like a mule. I bought my own tools and lengthened the forcing cones and re-cut the chokes to IM (.023) and LM (.013). The Husky printed better but was not acceptable. I then used my Montefeltro as a �control�. Using Carlson IM chokes I got OK patterns from the same ITX loads but when I went to LM (Skeet II) the patterns were excellent. I then had the opportunity to pick up a Knockabout that had been built as a 10 gauge but reworked by the previous owner to 3� 12 gauge. Briley sleeved the chambers making it a heavily over-bored 12 gauge. The Francotte throws excellent patterns with ITX and anything else I have shot so far. The Husky has been relegated to an upland gun. My tests with lead shot suggest a short shot cup like the BP Brush Wad throws the best patterns with #5 and #6 lead. IMO the ITX is just a little too hard for the tight bores and chokes when combined with a heavy shot cup designed to carry tungsten payloads. Based on my experience combined with comments from others the ITX runs much better with more open chokes and I would probably just run with NICE shot if I was to load for an original European double gun.