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Forums10
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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6 |
Maybe we should fight back by demanding they shut down all the windmills the same "Greens" cite as alternative to oil/coal fired generators.They kill more raptors and scanvengers than die from eating lead shot.
Mike According to the USF&WS, these are estimated annual bird mortality rates from various causes. Huge uncertainty in these numbers, but still no one is calling to ban cats or power lines: Windows - 97-976 million Communication Towers - 40-50 million Power lines - 174 million Cars - 60 million Wind Turbines - 33,000 Pesticides - 72 million Domestic rural cats (not including urban/suburban cats) - 39 million USF&WS
Such a long, long time to be gone, and a short time to be there.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 626
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 626 |
Keep one thing in mind here:
The anti's will use any sort of flimsy nonsensical argument to make shooting more difficult or more expensive. That's why we have to oppose them on all fronts as was just done in Colorado.
Jim They have released the condors in AZ.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 54
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 54 |
They have released the condors in AZ. I am missing your point. There are condors in AZ and they seem to be doing OK, with some exceptions. AZ does not have a mandatory ban on lead ammo in their condor areas, but they have asked hunters to voluntarily comply by either using non-tox ammo or by not leaving gut piles. According to the newsletters I get from AZ-GFD, the voluntary compliance is working.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 626
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 626 |
They have released the condors in AZ. I am missing your point. There are condors in AZ and they seem to be doing OK, with some exceptions. AZ does not have a mandatory ban on lead ammo in their condor areas, but they have asked hunters to voluntarily comply by either using non-tox ammo or by not leaving gut piles. According to the newsletters I get from AZ-GFD, the voluntary compliance is working. Really, don't you see a "trend". www.defendersblog.org/2013/06/toxic-trends-lead-still-the-culprit-in-az-condor-deaths/
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 54
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 54 |
Really, don't you see a "trend". Nope. What I see is propaganda and inaccurate "reporting." This is from the link you posted: studies have shown that there is no perceivable difference in accuracy or efficacy between lead and non-lead ammunition, and that some alternatives, like copper, even have advantages over their lead counterparts.
The reality of the situation is that requiring the use of non-lead ammunition for hunting is an easy way to make the environment that much less toxic to wildlife, and to us. If the survival of the condor isn’t enough of a motivating factor for AZ residents to join the movement to “get the lead out,” perhaps the thought of increasing the amount of toxic lead in the human body by 50% by eating lead-laced venison is. No perceivable difference between lead and non-lead ammo? Really? Wonder where they got that factoid. Increasing toxic lead in the human body by 50% by eating lead-laced venison? Again, really? How does one "lace" the backstrap of a deer with lead? Pure biased bullshit that does not fly in Arizona (pun is completely intentional). So far, the AZ legislators and regulators are too smart for that crap, and are doing a decent job of representing their constituents' interests.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 54
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 54 |
From AZGFD, 9/6/13: Lead poisoning is the leading cause of death in condors and the main obstacle to a self-sustaining population in Arizona-Utah. A number of scientific studies collectively provide strong evidence to support the hypothesis that spent ammunition is the primary source of lead exposure in condors. Condors ingest the lead fragments from carcasses and gut piles.
The Arizona Game and Fish Department started offering free non-lead ammunition in 2005 to hunters drawn for hunts in the condor’s core range, which includes Game Management Units 12 A/B and 13A. Annually 80 to 90 percent of hunters take measures to reduce the amount of lead available to condors by using non-lead ammunition or removing lead-tainted gut piles from the field. Emphasis added. Note the high level of voluntary compliance in AZ.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 54
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,475 Likes: 54 |
And there was no compliance in CA?
Why place the condors in an area that does not have a ban on lead when we have lead free zones in CA? You live in CA, I live in CA. We both know that the regulators and legislators in this state do not want to even give us the option to do anything voluntarily. They will continue to legislate, regulate and mandate everything that they can get away with. This is a nanny state taken to the extreme, to the point at which they are knowingly encroaching on our rights under the federal constitution. But they don't seem to care about logic or reason or effectiveness as long as their actions fit their political agenda. The political greed, corruption, and back-room deals are appalling, both at the state level and in the larger cities, especially Los Angeles and San Francisco. Why release condors in AZ? The biologists seem to believe that their natural range was/is CA, AZ, UT, and northern Mexico. Do you think Mexico is moving to ban lead ammo to protect the big buzzards?
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 626
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 626 |
It was just 20 years ago I was able to run hounds and hunt any furred animal including big cats. There were no restrictions on the style or type of firearm I could buy or where I could buy it. No restrictions on ammo or where it could be used. One by one we lost those freedoms. Prior to the restrictions being imposed the anti's ran a media blitz using a "poster child" animal or event to convince the general populace that the loss of freedom by the few would be to the benefit of the many. When the anti's are not successful legislatively they will attempt to use the courts. I hope your right. www.paysonroundup.com/news/2013/aug/25/lead-blamed-half-condor-deaths/PS As far as a voluntary non use of lead goes I would be non- compliant but would take care to leave none behind.
Last edited by PM; 09/17/13 10:54 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 45
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 45 |
The Nobomber Justice Department has yet to prosecute a single case of raptor or eagle kill by windpower mills. Supposedly the USFWS reports the numbers, etc, to Justice. And of course, USFWS gets the number of eagles etc killed by windpower mills from the power companies themselves. No doubt in my mind that the power companies run accurate timely counts of dead eagles and then rush to get the required data to USFWS. NOT. Maybe we should fight back by demanding they shut down all the windmills the same "Greens" cite as alternative to oil/coal fired generators.They kill more raptors and scanvengers than die from eating lead shot.If their interest really is in saving the birds, they will agree, if they resist, it shows they are only against guns.
Mike
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