doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Double friendly waterfowl loads

I'm not impressed with any modern steel loads or most guns that digest them. I also really dont want to spend $75 a box on the commercial double friendly waterfowl loads. My plan is to start loading my own vintage double waterfowl loads and I would like to hear what has and hasn't worked for fellow board members. I like what I have read about NiceShot but haven't shot it at ducks so please share your experiences. I have a wide variety of 12 gauge reloading components on hand, minus the approved shot, so please help me get started by sharing your favorite vintage double approved waterfowl recipes.

I'm shooting 2 1/2" 7/8 and 1 oz 12ga loads of ITX #4's out of my Husky hammer shotgun and my Stevens 235. They have worked well on decoying ducks, and pheasants out of my Darne. I will be loading some 7/8oz ITX 6's for my 2 1/2" 16ga hammer drilling for this season for combo Pheasant, Duck and Deer hunts. All my loads come out of the Ballistic Products ITX loading book.

Channing,

Send me a PM or email and I'll provide my favorite Nice Shot loads.

Mark

While I like tungsten alloy loads a lot, Kent tungsten matrix is my favorite. But it is steep, no doubt. I have had bad results with Bismuth. I have shot Nice Shot loads with good results, too. I haven't gotten anything bad from Ballistic Products in about 30 years, either. Their load data and components are very good.

While I believe some of Ballistic products info is hype to sell more stuff (and I am guilty of buy it), there is no doubt that ITX is a great product and will kill ducks. I ave used it for a couple of years. It makes shooting the older guns possible without breaking the bank

Jerry

The problem is that most of the shot is really expensive as well. NiceShot is about like buying gold.....

DLH

I have shot a full box of 12 ga. 1.125 oz #4 ITX from a case of the former New Era Ammunition company I bought before they closed their doors nearly two years ago so take this for what it's worth... Puddle ducks shot inside of 25 yds over decoys with m/f Fox chokes were cleanly killed. Beyond that, not so good. Of course not a lot of data points at only a box thus far and, I'll admit to not patterning these shells but intend to very soon before our season opens. If memory serves, the New Era 2.75" 12 ga was about $400/case which seems like a bargain vs today's prices of tungsten or nice shot.

Before I had to buy the New Era ITX offering of the time, I was shooting Bisimuth Classic 1.25 oz #4's at both ducks and turkey and fully trusted the performance but alas my stocks rand dry and save for a final box of ten reserved for one spring gobbler each year, I'm out.

-jmc

I am curious of the issue surrounding Bismuth. Although I'm not sure for vintage tubes, but Hevi-Shot has some ugly components. The oval shaped "stuff" often has smaller teats and has some odd buffer. I haven't taken the time to pattern it but in its component form, it is quite the odd duck. But it does somehow seem to work.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have been using both Nice Shot and Bismuth in my hammer doubles for quite a few years now and prefer Nice Shot 2'S for my ten gauge
DT

Bismuth is a mystery to me, to the point I don't have confidence in it. I suck it up and buy Kent. I have an ample bismuth supply in shells and jugs and don't use it. There's no pleasure in birds dead-to-rights as cripples. My guess is shot brittleness.

Just this past weekend I used RST 1.25 oz Nice Shot #2's in my Remington 1894 10 ga. I used 3 shells to kill 2 geese. So far I like these shells a lot. However, they are $4 a shell. So, I bought 2 kilos of Nice Shot to load into the RST hulls. I figure to use the Sherman Bell load data to do so.

I'm very interested in trying out the ITX in 4 shot for smaller birds. Details to come as the season progresses.

Mergus

When investigating the reports of brittle bismuth shot some years ago, I ferreted out some commentary and laboratory analyses posted on the web that indicate that there were two problems with the production on both sides of the Atlantic in the early years. One was a failure to understand the purity of the less expensive grade of source metal that was initially used and the potential problems therefrom, and the other was poor quality control of the alloying. These together could result in batches with little more than 1% tin (vs. 2% in the patents and 3% in the later commercial specifications) and significant amounts of embrittling contaminants, and it apparently took a surprising while before these problems were sorted out. I've neither experience with nor seen any analyses of the more recent Eley production, but anecdotal reports have it with consistent pure source metals and 3% alloying. In discussions of the making of bismuth shot in Littleton and other shotmakers, a number of individuals report using a 5% tin alloy, but no one that I've read has been specific about any potential increase in malleability and decrease in density of the higher alloy. FWIW, my hunting partners and I had reasonable results with moderate loads of the early production shot in our muzzle loaders, both choked and cylinder bore.

Regards,
Joel

Thanks for your post, Joel.

Does anyone know if there is an online table comparing the hardness and density or ITX, NiceShot, Bismuth shot, Lead shot, etc?

When I look up density online for lead and bismuth am I correct in assuming that its only accurate for pure lead and bismuth, not shot with additives like tin or antimony?

Here is an online table I found yesterday. Hope it helps.

http://shotshell.drundel.com/pelletcount.htm

I put this together with information from various sources, the majority on-line, including some materials potentially suitable for fabricating non-toic shot and/or round balls:

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Shot material densities.
. . . . . . . g/cc . . % of Pb-Sn (average shot alloys)
- Sn . . . . 7.30 . . . 65% approximate - varies by source & allotrope mix
- Pewter 7.24-7.36 . 64-66% lead-free, Sn alloyed w/ Sb &/or Cu
- Pewter 7.38-8.65 . 66-77% lead-free, Sn alloyed w/ Sb &/or Cu &/or Bi &/or Ag
- Fe . . . . 7.86 . . . 70% "steel" - BHN 136
- Bi-Sn . . .9.69 . . . 86% "bismuth" currently 3% Sn - BHN 18
- ITX . . . . 10.0 . . . 89% ITX "Original 10" vs the 13g/cc turkey shot
. . . hardness claims obscure; malleability reportedly similar to hard lead alloys but abrasive per initial descriptions
- W-Fe . . .10.3 . . . 92% Federal "Tungsten-Iron" - BHN 270
- W-polymer 10.6 . . 94% Kent "Tungsten-Matrix"
- Pb-Sb-Sn (high alloy, bullet material ranging down into hard shot)
. . . . . 10.0-10.75 . . 89-96%
- W-Sn-Fe . .11.0 . . 99% "Nice Shot" (current density w/ Sn coating = 10.2/91%) - BHN 18
- Pb-Sn (average shot)
. . . . . 11.1-11.25 . nominal 100%
- Pb(pure) . 11.43 . 102% - BHN 5
- W-Ni-Fe . 12.0 . . 107% Remington "HeviShot" - BHN 266
- W-Cu-Sn . 12.0 . . 107% Olin "Tungsten-Bronze"

NOTE: Calculations of charge volumes need to take into account packing effects of different shot sizes and size of charge, e.g. Fe#1 = 63-67% Pb#6 per findings below, rather than the 70% of the bulk material densities.

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Steel shot contained in lead shot shotshell-reloader bushings calibrated for Pb#6:
bushing - Fe#1 +/- 1/16oz
1.1/2 - 15/16
1.5/8 - 1.1/16
1.3/4 - 1.1/8
1.7/8 - 1.3/16
2.1/4 - 1.1/2

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Bismuth shot contained in lead shot bushings (calibrated for Pb#6?):
bushing - Bi#4
1.3/8 - 1.3/16 (=86%Pb)

In one of my hunting partner's shot dipper 1.1/2Pb -> 1.1/4 Bi#4 as he measures (struck?) =83%Pb.

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This was as comprehensive and accurate as I could assemble at the time, but since I neglected to record my sources, it is worth exctly what you paid for it.

Regards,
Joel