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Anyone else see this? CA lead bullet ban bill



How many humans are sickened from ingesting lead bullet fragments? How are bullets even remotely analogous to house paint and children's toys?

It appears this is limited to bullets only, but the camel's nose seems seems to be headed for the tent.

I have never heard of anyone getting sick or dying from lead exposure of bullets. Its probably justified by some tree hugger college researcher with a personal agenda against firearms.

Well bullets do of course kill things,,,but this seems like pure bulletshit
franc

It is pure bullshit, and as far as I am aware it has not yet been signed by the gov, but has been passed by the assembly and senate. The version I read covered all hunting ammo, not just bullets. So kiss off CA dove hunting if this thing gets signed.

Lead bullets have been banned in the CA condor range for years, but condors are still dying of lots of natural causes. Who'd a thunk it?

I'm afraid nothing short of a nationwide tax boycott will reign in governmental madness. Steve

I hate steel as much as anyone else, and I doubt very much that lead pellets are a serious problem in upland hunting. However the effects of ingested pellets on waterfowl have been known since the 1920's; large numbers of ducks died from ingesting lead from sandy bottoms before the lead ban. There is no question that condors and a lot of other scavenging birds are dying of ingested lead (to say nothing of the rodenticides that are very widely used in agriculture). Apparently the biggest problem for condors are ground squirrels shot with .22's. Currently, every condor in California is trapped annually and undergoes a process like dialysis to remove lead from the bloodstream.

For anyone interested in the science: http://www.peregrinefund.org/subsites/conference-lead/2008PbConf_Proceedings.htm

The attempts to save the condor are well documented. In more that 40 years it has failed to re-establish. It has been selected for extinction and will only survive in a man made environment

I SUSPECT that the condor is doomed like the other "Ice Age Megafauna" that sustained it at the height of its populations.

It got an artificial(i.e. man-made) boost from the livestock practices of the Spanish and Mexican Californios, whose "rodeos" and "matanzas" killed thousands of cattle for their tallow, hides, and horns, and left the bulk of the meat for scavengers.

Anglo meat transportation and thrift finished that and the big birds were left with an unsustainable population, just as even bigger scavenger birds had been at the end of the post-glacial "wet spell." You can see all this in skeleton form at the La Brea Tar Pits museum.

I don't condone pollution, including lead pollution. But I think we need to set priorities, and work on existing populations of game and wildlife that have some chance of surviving. The condor seems to me to be a bad investment of scarce resources all around.

I think we are stuck with hunting with steel shot and expensive alternatives, as a matter of bird conservation. Wish it weren't so, but it seems that's the trend, politically and scientifically.

Centerfire rifle bullets aren't such a dire proposition, since there are decent non-lead CENTERFIRE alternatives and have been for some time.


But rimfire ammunition is a real dilemma. "Green" rimfire ammo is not very adequate in expansion or accuracy, in my experience, not to mention being too expensive for many shooters. The present nonlead bullets are wounders or ricochet prone--or both--as well.

Since at least a big part of the impetus for these new laws is purely anti-gun and anti-2nd Amendment, I suspect that the lead ban will soon be extended to TARGET ammo, probably on "public health" grounds.

That WILL be deadly. To our sport.

The whole thing is a plot to stop hunting. First in CA. Then the nation. These people have no real science behind it. Make it harder or more expensive to hunt, and you will loose hunters. Condors done eat doves, quail, or pheasant etc.
What the antis don't think about is this will bankrupt the refuges they love to bird watch at for free.
Don't give in. If you stop hunting that is what they want.
Jerry

I have been on that peregrinefund.org website that LGF placed above, looking at their lead ammunition studies in the past when Ben Deeble would drop a load of anti-lead ammunition links. This is easily refutable crap and junk science intended to eliminate hunting. Lead bullets and shot will persist in the environment for hundreds, if not thousands of years. If it was really a problem, lead shot in lakes and coastal hunting areas would still be killing waterfowl. It's not. Nobody cleaned it up, and the bottom gets churned up from storms, etc. to expose old lead from pre-steel days. Once the anti-lead people got their way, the ducks suddenly stopped dying. Imagine that!

There is no scientific data supporting the claim that spent lead at shooting ranges has any effect whatsoever on the environment such as "seeping into groundwater" as is claimed by some groups who have no idea what they're talking about. (Perpetuate the lie and it will eventually be taken as 'truth')
The shooting club I belong to has very active trap and skeet ranges as well as pistol and a twenty-position rifle range. At our expense we hired a non-biased firm to do soil studies on the trap range where literally billions of small 7 1/2 and 8 shot has been covering the ground down-range for many decades. The results of their tests were that lead contamination of any kind was found no deeper than 8 inches with 10 inches being the extreme and that there has been no lead contamination whatsoever to the ground water beneath the ranges.

The lead danger to humans was raised several years back. CDC did a study in North Dakota, where the issue was raised by an individual with connections to the Peregrine Fund. Turned out that those who participated in the study and said they ate game shot with lead did have higher levels of lead in their blood than those who did not. HOWEVER . . . the AVERAGE lead level of EVERYONE in the study--with a very high proportion (something like 80%) stating that they ate game shot with lead--was lower than the national blood lead level. Much ado about not much, unless you eat one heck of a lot of game shot with lead, or maybe consciously swallow lead shot (which is pretty easily removed).

As far as wildlife goes, the waterfowl problem (and the eagle problem) have been solved since we went to nontox for ducks. Bald eagles have made a remarkable recovery, even though raptor rehabilitators still find the occasional eagle that's suffering from lead poisoning--mostly, it would appear, from wounded and unrecovered deer. (You see a roadkill deer here in Wisconsin, you're more likely to see eagles on it than either vultures or crows.) And there's no proof, with the exception of doves on very heavily hunted areas, that the ingestion of lead shot poses a problem for upland game. The biologists theorize that some upland birds do ingest lead pellets, from which they get sick and die. But they haven't had much luck finding the evidence to support that theory.

Yet another issue of particular interest to this group is that those promoting a lead ban aren't telling the truth about steel and shotguns. Many of us hunt with guns in which we can't, or shouldn't, shoot steel. Which means that if lead were banned, we'd either have to hang up our vintage guns or else switch to extremely expensive nontox alternatives to steel. And some of the guns in question aren't really "vintage". For example, Browning recommends no steel in any of its Belgian-made guns. Not in Superposeds, A-5's, Double Autos, etc. Hundreds of thousands of which were produced after WWII.

I agree that the hazards to health, human and otherwise, of target shooting with lead shot and bullets are minimal to nonexistent. What I'm saying is that the antis, antihunting and antigun, have added two more strings to their fiddle: "public health" and "wildlife environmental protection," and they will play those for all they can. In CA right now, that's a lot.

Resistance continues (see www.calguns.net) but it seems the courts are the most likely source of relief right now. Some of the provisions of the laws against sale and transfer of semi-automatic arms are pretty clearly unconstitutional on grounds other than the 2nd Amendment.

Maybe we should fight back by demanding they shut down all the windmills the same "Greens" cite as alternative to oil/coal fired generators.They kill more raptors and scanvengers than die from eating lead shot.If their interest really is in saving the birds, they will agree, if they resist, it shows they are only against guns.
Mike

I was hunting this weekend with a guy who works for the U.S. Forest Service. As we were driving through the wind farm in the Banning Pass (hideously ugly), he told me that some new turbines are being equipped with some sort of radar that senses the approach of big birds and stops the turbine before the bird hits it. I don't know how long it takes to stop those blades, but I was planning to do a bit of research on that topic. Anybody know the details?

Sounds plausible Replacement. Practicality is another story. I have seen some enormously large steel mill reversing roughing mill motors and their large spindle shafts and rolls come to a stop in a few seconds using dynamic or regenerative braking. I'm talking about over 100 tons of shaft, back-up and work-roll, and armature or rotor that is turning much faster than any wind turbine. However, applying that kind of stopping and starting torque to the blades and turbines every time a bird passes would eventually cause components to fail prematurely, or require additional expense and engineering to make them stronger. So I question whether the operators of these systems would incur the additional cost, or just cheat and disable the radar. I also note this is for large birds. Are the animal lovers going to accept the continued slaughter of the smaller species?

However, I do like Mike's idea of testing the system by demanding the total ban of bird killing wind turbines to see if it's all about gun control... even though we already know it is.

Well, I feel for those of you in CA whose legislators are trying to make shooting your fine doubles uneconomical.

If the costs of shooting becomes prohibitive and you wish to sell, particularly British guns, PM me.

While I am no longer obsessed with buying, I still have a hard time walking away from a drop dead deal.

I've had more dental problems from steel than I ever had any kind of health problems from lead. Yeah you can still spit it out but you've broke the filling by then!...Geo

Keep one thing in mind here:
The anti's will use any sort of flimsy nonsensical argument to make shooting more difficult or more expensive. That's why we have to oppose them on all fronts as was just done in Colorado.
Jim

True story...Way back, a granny in coonass Louisiana had her appendix removed. It was inflamed by 1/4 oz. various size lead shot. Now, considering she took out all she could before cooking, spit out all she could while eating, and passed all she could after eating, JUST HOW MUCH GAME had granny probably eaten to collect enough to inflame her appendix? But granny didn't start a lawsuit against shot makers. BTW, I am from coonass East Texas, little place called "resume speed" at least that's what the sign said... Steve

According to the USF&WS, these are estimated annual bird mortality rates from various causes. Huge uncertainty in these numbers, but still no one is calling to ban cats or power lines:

Windows - 97-976 million
Communication Towers - 40-50 million
Power lines - 174 million
Cars - 60 million
Wind Turbines - 33,000
Pesticides - 72 million
Domestic rural cats (not including urban/suburban cats) - 39 million

USF&WS

They have released the condors in AZ.

I am missing your point. There are condors in AZ and they seem to be doing OK, with some exceptions. AZ does not have a mandatory ban on lead ammo in their condor areas, but they have asked hunters to voluntarily comply by either using non-tox ammo or by not leaving gut piles. According to the newsletters I get from AZ-GFD, the voluntary compliance is working.

Really, don't you see a "trend".

www.defendersblog.org/2013/06/toxic-trends-lead-still-the-culprit-in-az-condor-deaths/

Nope. What I see is propaganda and inaccurate "reporting." This is from the link you posted:



No perceivable difference between lead and non-lead ammo? Really? Wonder where they got that factoid. Increasing toxic lead in the human body by 50% by eating lead-laced venison? Again, really? How does one "lace" the backstrap of a deer with lead? Pure biased bullshit that does not fly in Arizona (pun is completely intentional). So far, the AZ legislators and regulators are too smart for that crap, and are doing a decent job of representing their constituents' interests.

From AZGFD, 9/6/13:



Emphasis added. Note the high level of voluntary compliance in AZ.

And there was no compliance in CA?
Why place the condors in an area that does not have a ban on lead when we have lead free zones in CA?

I hope your right.

www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/...?nclick_check=1

You live in CA, I live in CA. We both know that the regulators and legislators in this state do not want to even give us the option to do anything voluntarily. They will continue to legislate, regulate and mandate everything that they can get away with. This is a nanny state taken to the extreme, to the point at which they are knowingly encroaching on our rights under the federal constitution. But they don't seem to care about logic or reason or effectiveness as long as their actions fit their political agenda. The political greed, corruption, and back-room deals are appalling, both at the state level and in the larger cities, especially Los Angeles and San Francisco.

Why release condors in AZ? The biologists seem to believe that their natural range was/is CA, AZ, UT, and northern Mexico. Do you think Mexico is moving to ban lead ammo to protect the big buzzards?

It was just 20 years ago I was able to run hounds and hunt any furred animal including big cats. There were no restrictions on the style or type of firearm I could buy or where I could buy it. No restrictions on ammo or where it could be used. One by one we lost those freedoms. Prior to the restrictions being imposed the anti's ran a media blitz using a "poster child" animal or event to convince the general populace that the loss of freedom by the few would be to the benefit of the many. When the anti's are not successful legislatively they will attempt to use the courts. I hope your right.

www.paysonroundup.com/news/2013/aug/25/lead-blamed-half-condor-deaths/

PS As far as a voluntary non use of lead goes I would be non- compliant but would take care to leave none behind.

The Nobomber Justice Department has yet to prosecute a single case of raptor or eagle kill by windpower mills. Supposedly the USFWS reports the numbers, etc, to Justice. And of course, USFWS gets the number of eagles etc killed by windpower mills from the power companies themselves.
No doubt in my mind that the power companies run accurate timely counts of dead eagles and then rush to get the required data to USFWS.
NOT.

Guns and hunting aside, these people must be stopped. They are antiscience, antitruth quasi religious fanatics that hark back to the Middle Ages. Their disregard for the truth and cynical conviction that the end justifies the means are dangerous generally.

Read Arnold's book "Undue Influence" to get a handle on how the "movement" works, and where it wants to take society.

I've seen it brought up elsewhere, but it seems nontoxic rifle bullets fit the description of armor piercing. A quick look at the atf site says that frangible target bullets are exempt, but sporting bullet use is at the discretion of the att. gen. It doesn't mention anything about scientific studies, the environment or health.

Some can, but they are not much good for hunting. We generally use copper bullets. Work OK, but not as well as lead. Stuff is expensive, so practice is concentrated just before a hunt, rather than year around. Can use other lead ammo for practice, but why bother if trajectory is different than the hunting load. Big PITA, and I have not seen a box of .308 Barnes in two years, so have to hunt with a .270 because I have "legal" ammo for that gun.

This is disturbing:



http://www.ammoland.com/2013/09/californ.../#axzz2fGzbNYCS

Well we are in deep s__t here in CA. I am in awe of the number of new proposed firearms, hunting and ammo restrictions and the ease in which they moved through the legislature. We can only hope our Governor deems some of them too costly ($) to sign.

Are there any restrictions on shipping non-tox ammo person to person from an outside state to a resident of CA?

Thanks

No restrictions on shipping any lead or non-tox hunting ammo into CA. There may be some military or armor-piercing loads that are restricted, but I suspect those restrictions are federal. None of the BS state ammo regulations have yet been signed into law, except for the condor zone stuff. The gov is signing stuff every day, but this topic has been quiet. Let's hope it stays that way.

The ammo restriction pertains to hunting only and wouldn't be in effect till 2019.
Replacement as you probably know the Governor needs to veto these firearms/ammo bills. He can put his name on the ones he is in agreement with but if he simply does nothing they become law.

I was more than a bit bothered yesterday by some of the gov's comments at the signing ceremony for the 25% bump in the CA minimum wage ($8 to $10 over a couple of years). There was no business or economic logic in his statements, and his decision sounded like it evolved out of a combination of religious zealotry and his continuing quest for what some would call "social justice." I know he spent time in a seminary, but this is ridiculous. We can only hope that he applies more logic to the gun and ammo legislation that is sitting on his desk. I like Jerry, but I think he's nuts.

Some of his constituent unions have come out against the ammo ban. One thing for sure Jerry is unpredictable. He has a couple of more weeks to place a veto on these bills before they automatically become law.