doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com No. 6s for doves

Interesting to see this topic come up. I've been called a few things in the past for being an advocate of lead #6 [American size] shot for dove, inclusive of unsafe. What is unsafe is shooting low birds. Shoot NO LOW BIRDS, EVER!! Shoot what Stan is calling high dove & what I call high flyers and I don't see the issue. However, safety has to come above all else and that can never be over emphasized. That is inclusive of seeing that all shooters on a dove field have safety glasses of some sort and ear plugs. I usually always carry extras of both to the field w/me, JIC. Not sufficient for a large party but some of each plus a flattened partial roll of TP in a baggie & a few paper towels & minor first aid kit w/a good pair of tweezers are always in my field bag as well; someone always needing one of those items before the day is out. Back to the topic, #6's will put every dove in the bag that you are ever entitled to and as a rule not tear them up if your shots are over 30 yards or so. For those way out there, honest 45 yard plus shots a dog sure helps in their recovery and at all ranges in any kind of cover. Up close, 6's can destroy a bird when well centered, but so can smaller sized shot. Generally speaking, 6's do not stay in the bird inside any reasonable range, so you have no need to be on the lookout for embedded shot. OTOH, dental work is expensive, so some caution is always advisable when eating game.

Lead #7's [.100"] are wonderfully effective on dove & pigeons. I've shot numbers of both w/the RC 20 ga. 'Trap' load of 25 grams in South America and always been well pleased w/the performance. Here, I mostly shoot the older Federal 20 ga. game loads that are 7/8 oz. of #6 lead on both dove & quail & the occasional feral pigeons when using a 20. Those cartridges are loaded with a two piece plastic wad much like the no longer available 12C1 "Pushin' Cushion" that was never available as a 20 ga. component. I found that ammuntion to throw very consistent patterns and bought a great deal of it from Academy when they handed it. They used to sell it as their main dove & quail ammo & had it in 6's, 7.5' & 8's. The 6's didn't sell well locally.

West Coast sells their hard 'magnum' shot in an honest well graded #7 size for those that wish to reload it. And while I'm thinking of it, Hogdon's lists an extremely low pressure & effective 7/8oz. 20 ga. reasonable velocity load using IMR 800X. Might want to check it out.

For shooting dove way out there, size matters. So does pattern density. Use some choke!

What a great bunch of posts. I guess I am behind the crowd, having never really tried 6s or 7s on doves. Guess the reason I never tried 7s is because they weren't available when I was a kid, in hardware stores, where most shells were sold here, and I didn't start reloading until I was grown. This is just the kind of personal information I was hoping for.

The energy numbers kinda speak for themselves, don't they? Huge differences in retained energy. I use loads all over the board from the beginning of the season to the end. I open the season with a .410 S x S, and usually don't even find the need for the 11/16 oz. loads on the young, close doves. If I use the .410 again later in the first half of our season(s) I will go to 3" shells. Then I fall into the groove with my 687 SP II Sporting 20 ga. and 7/8 oz. loads. This is more than adequate for most of the rest of the shooting I do, though I tend to lean toward the IM and LF chokes at the end. But, it's the big late season ones that get me up to the 16 ga. Elsie, with XF and XF chokes, and 1 oz. shot.

As some of you know, I grow corn and peanuts, among other things, and have access to a lot of fields other than my own. The late birds have left the sunflowers, here, and are in the peanuts mostly. This year I planted 10 fields in benne (sesame) for harvest, and have high expectations that they will yield some fine late season shoots. While I agree with George's concern about shot fall with 6s, I do a lot of this late shooting with just a handful of friends, and shot fall is much less concern than on a crowded field. I also shoot a fair amount alone, so I can manage that part of the deal easily.

What comparisons could we draw with using, say, a 1 oz. load of 6s compared to a 1 oz. load of 7 1/2s as far as choking down to have an equivalent pattern density? I.e., would the 6s, out of a full choke be roughly the same density as the 7 1/2 s out of a LM, in density of pattern? I don't believe I have ever seen that kind of data. In other words, if I can center a dove in my pattern of 7 1/2s with LM choke and kill him reliably at 50 yards, will the density of the load of 6s allow me to do it at 70 with the full choke, if I also center the bird in the pattern?

SRH

Stan - have you checked out the pattern programs that Dr. AC Jones has posted on his website - Shotgun Insight

The Pattern Optimizer and Pattern Simulator can provide some useful visual information of pattern densities from different loads, along with some interesting statistical analysis of what pattern densities are required to ensure a certain likelihood of pellet strikes. While it is "hypothetical" in the sense that the patterns are randomly generated by a computer program and not actual shotgun patterns, they still help provide a visual sense what an 70% pattern of #8s looks like compared to a 80% pattern of #7 1/2s, for instance. It takes a little tinkering to figure out, but I found it worth the time.

Only slightly off topic - what size of steel shot is best for doves? Ontario has finally opened a dove season, but mandates "non toxic" shot.

Well, notwithstanding my previous post about lead sixes in a crowded field, with steel you are pretty well stuck with size six shot...Geo

I made a start toward Jones' work last spring early, but got sidetracked with planting and tending a crop this summer. I am moving toward reading and understanding his work, and also installing my own pattern plate. When that is completed I can answer these questions for myself, I guess. I'll get it finished this winter. Got the steel on hand, just need to get it up and in place to use. I'll take a look at his findings. Thanks.

I agree with the recommendation for steel 6s for doves, tho' I've never tried them. From my experiences with steel for ducks/geese, I'd try the 6s.

SRH

I can't say for sure on doves- they are not legal here in MI- But I shoot a lot of barn pigeons and crows in the spring and summer off-seasons here, on local dairy farms, also blackbirds (not red-winged ones) and sometimes, starlings and grackles. I always use one of the 12 gauges I also use in the fall and late seasons for tower and field pheasants, and waterfowl- so one day I might be shooting a full chokes M12, another day a M and Full LC Smith or Parker double. I use Win AA lite no. 9 skeet loads, or RST equivalent- for all those pest birds, and at all ranges. fro m incomers to "barrel stretchers" as well-

I grew up under the tuteledge of my Granddad's best friend, a live bird money circuit shooter and a market hunter before that was outlawed- He shot a Model 1897 Tournament grade 30" Full- and used 7&1/2 Federal paper Champion shells- even for geese- He "head shot" his ducks and geese, and they died in the air-A natural wingshot, like the gent with the 20 gauge Remington with the Polychoke-- So I have always believed in heavy dense patterns for certain quary- With steel shot the issue, that has changed things for the waterfowling guns a bit, and also in areas and now in Canada apparently for doves.

I have never shot doves nor jacksnipes or sora rails, but from all that I have rear (Nash Buckingham, Paul Curtis, etc.) I have to believe they are the greatest challenge to a wingshot's ability.

A couple of years ago a friend and I noticed there was a river of pigeons flying over the training grounds of the bird dog club in Lubbock. We asked for and received permission to hunt them. I shot 1-1/8oz of #6s, 1200fps through a 9 pound Winchester 21 with screw in chokes. I had 30 thou and 40 thou chokes (full and fuller) in the 21. I estimate the birds were at 50 yards to 60 yards altitude but as there were no nearby trees or structure to compare to so they could have been higher or lower.

When I finally tried leading them by a yellow school bus the combination proved very effective.

Concede that pigeons are larger than dove so that and that a shot density adequate for pigeons might not be dense enough for dove.

Last fall I shot a combination of pigeons, collared dove, and mourning dove just north of Lubbock. The shots were from close to long depending on my place in the line and the time of day. I shot a Fox XE12 choked full and full and 1oz of #6s. If limited to tight chokes I would happily shoot 6s or 7-1/2s at mourning dove either pass shooting or shooting over a pond in the evening.

I've got a bunch of old 16 ga. 6s in one ounce loads. I will give them a workout this winter, during the late season here.

Mike, while pigeons are considerably bigger than doves they also take a lot more killing. Pigeons are just plain tough. topgun stated that he believed that one #6 pellet will put down a dove almost every time. I do not doubt that, but I know it won't a pigeon. IMO, if the load of 6s will put down a pigeon, it won't let a dove through.

Thanks everyone, SRH

I have used 6s on those days when they are flying high, taking a box of No 6s along on a dove hunt might good insurance.