doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Woodward Nitro Proof

Sound advice from Dig. I bought a beautiful sidelock with replacement barrels from a member here a few months back. The mating to the action looks perfect, the gun fits me extremely well (the kind of fit that measurements can't convey)and overall looks quite lovely, actually beautiful!

And perhaps best of all, I shoot it really well.

So don't forget to factor in the real intent of the purchase; is it more for investment reasons or more for hunting/shooting? Nothing wrong either way. And once you have it in hand you might feel both masters are served, which sometimes happens with really nice guns.

Anyway, here's hoping you fall in love with it.

Thanks all...great learning curve...I am not getting it for the investment but to shoot. I was just concerned a bit with whether it was too much. My reaction before the opInions was that this gun was a good price ..and the barrels were not sleeved...with great thickness and as I was told , tight....two major issues with any older gun... And besides, I can not afford a Woodward with original barrels...but it has the arcade fences and appears as a classic Woodward. CSMC has a side lock s/ s on GI for $45,000..... I will follow up in a day or two .

In case you haven't figured it out, CSMC is in the stratosphere on most, if not all of their guns, but ESP on all their 'doctored' up Model 21's......and I'm a doctor, so there. Seriously, your gun is a nice gun for $7000. However, It has No case color, replacement barrels and is a non-ejector. If I wanted a gun I could take hunting and not worry about getting 'battle scars' and worrying about leaving it in the truck while I got a bite to eat, and not worrying about denting the barrels, or even waste the least little bit of time worrying about this gun, I would buy and use this gun, even though it is a bit heavy for my taste in a field gun. On the other hand, if I wanted a super nice, best gun, that may even appreciate in value, and that I could use, and with care, keep in excellent condition, I would, for sure, pass on this Woodward and go for something the 'establishment ' as well as myself would consider of being of a higher quality......but clearly this is just my $.02 worth.

Condor, I'd do the "finance" as follows.

JW is a Brand Value name level one, BV1, along with Boss, H&H, and Purdey. This is an Original Quality grade two, OQ2 = best work non-ejector SL. The Current Condition seems to fit within the following two descriptions: CC6 = Shootable but needs some repairs and refinishing or refinished with barrels or stock replaced and CC7 = Shootable but needs expensive repairs or restored with stock and barrels replaced.

BV1-OQ2-CC6 = $6,203 and BV1-OQ2-CC7 = $4,331. I'd tend to imagine the CC6 description. However, sleeved and replaced barrels is a red flag for gun having had seriously heavy use. If the 'ole girl is ratted out, CC7 could be too high. The replaced barrels and description of a fairly sharp gun ends to a misfortune for the original barrels. Also, the backing and service from Cabelas does have some value above average retail.

I'm anxious to see photos.

DDA

Ok...Thanks....I am anxious ...will have pics up tomorrow. The only thing about the equation is that the gun supposedly needs no work according to Cabelas. I do not think the barrels or stock need replacing. Based on the description from Cabelas how do you reach the C-6 level? I know this is all discussion because I have not held it yet....but your description is telling me this is a bad deal....I am scratching my head. Dig's description a bit different. Frankly, if it will cost me $50,000 plus to get a gun with ejectors, case color, original barrels....I think that is way over priced...but understand the nature of custom ordered guns and the work it takes. I think this is a great discussion because I am sure there are a ton of guys who are thinking about this stuff and are all puzzled also....it is ,in way, like buying a used car...but then again , it is totally different....

I am seeing recent threads, all asking similar questions....I am trying to compare with the Lang equation in another thread. Are there C-3, C-4,and C-5 cats.

Champlin is selling a pair of Woodwards on GI for $17,500... Both are sleeved and both engraving is minimal... Nothing like what I see on mine ...at this point ....where is he getting that value?

Sorry Rocket...read that wrong....it is a c-6 IF the barrels and stock have ALREDY been done? The grading is starting to look like the grading of baseball cards( wink). I confirmed the three day review with the Gun Library at Cabels ...if I feel from all the info I am getting that I am paying too much...back it goes....if it is a fair price, I will keep it....shoot it. And know that if I dent the barrels it will most likely be able to be repaired.....I also feel if I had original barrels, paid more, then dented them with most likely thin walls...I would be in the soup having to get new barrels anyway or have them sleeved.....on the fence now.

New barrels does not always indicate abuse or heavy use. Most barrel replacement is due to accidental damage or rust following storage without cleaning.

CC6, in this case, would be a nicely restored gun with new barrels "by another." "Stock and barrels by another" would be CC7. However, if the gun were restored by the maker, to include new stock and barrels, the CC level would be CC5. BV1-OQ2-CC5 = $8,416. Consider that the range of barrel cost is something like 10X, say $2,000 for basic Spanish or Belgian to $20,000 for best work brand name and all points in between. Clearly, we shouldn't but basic barrels on a high OQ gun anymore than best work barrels on a beater. If the new barrels aren't endorsed by the maker, how well do they fit (mechanically and aesthetically) to the gun and to your intended future use is an important question. You may wish to adjust up or down from my "pigeon hole values." Note that I'm in no way saying the price is wrong; $6,203 vs $7,000 is really pretty close. BUT, you are hereby alerted to have the new barrels carefully checked to confirm they "go with" the rest of the gun. There is some collector value in guns such as the one under discussion, even in wall hanger condition. The closer the barrels mesh with the rest of the gun the more collector value/interest it will retain; for sure it is not a pure collector gun, rather a collector-shooter or shooter-collector. Again, hope this helps some.

DDA

Thank you Rocket for typing all that as it clarifies. I find this all fascinating. I am just hopeful that if I had to resell the gun I could at the price I paid, this is why I repeat myself on my motives...not a collector. So it is important that I see that the price is in line with the market....here is something about this gun that from what you say is interesting. If Purdey bought Woodward in 1948, and did so for the primary purpose of obtaining proprietary rights over its O/ U. The owner at the time decided whatever reason to get new barrels from some firm other than Purdey...that decision could have also been made while Woodward existed ...until I can get an accurate date on the rebarrelling. The reasons are lost in History. But from what I read between the lines from your thoughtful opinion is that there are gun makers, or barrel makers who had the resources and talent to make barrels as good as any original if the time was taken to melt the barrels with the gun. The fly in the ointment is that had the owner brought the gun to Purdey...Purdey was not the maker....It could have hired Woodward workers, but maybe only their O/ U guys and said we do not need more barrel makers. Again just speculating. so in fact, this Woodward or any Woodward would never have barrels made by Woodward after 1948. But there probably would be a premium to have the new Purdey barrels on...but what about good Birmingham barrel makers? It seems every gun has its own history... And to place them into broad categories is so subjective ...but obvious necessary to get a measuring rod. Just thinking.

Ps. Here is another thought..what if Cogswell and Harrison or Greener bought Woodward? Would getting a new barrel from Coggy be considered from the maker? This all emphasis the cache of the big three.

Condor, Purdey's can, at their own discrection, mark a set of barrels with "Woodward." They bought the name so they have that right; but Purdey's only. BTW, Purdey's have produced a few JW guns in recent years. Purdey's probably had several barrel makers on staff at any given time. JW ---?? I dunno ; we have so little info about the JW firm.

The point remains, I think, to what quality level is any given set of barrels made. I don't doubt that there are several craftsmen currently working who, paid the appropriate sum, can get you out a "best work" set of barrels that would be just as good as the OE's. The problem with non-OE work is that it always raises questions. Anything that raises questions reduces value.

DDA