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Larry, Gough Thomas was too much of an engineer to ignore the strength & economics of construction re. monoblocks but strength is only one factor when considering best guns as pleasing appearance must be considered also. The only monoblock joint I've ever seen that met best gun appearance standards (not that the gun was by a best by any stretch of the definition) was on the now discontinued Beretta 470 sxs guns & I have always wondered why Beretta went back to the ugly visible joint on the later 471.

Attempting to disguise the joint with engraving usually results in drawing more attention to it.

L.Brown,

The 12/20 was patented by William Baker, in my opinion the most inventive gunmaker ever, and offered by various firms, including Stephen Grant, under different model names. The location of proving is no guarantee of the location of manufacture. Note that no maker credits the inventor with a small stamp for this action or other Baker patents used.

Brittany Man,

The perception that the monobloc line is a matter of subjective taste. If the issue is not to see the joint (reminds me of the comedians Morecamb and Wise lines re a wig) then all other jointing methods would outrank the monobloc as would laser welding on the monobloc itself. While true demibloc (as in the Ideal, Winchester Mod 21, BSA) can technically stand comparison with the monobloc, the others with the convoluted mating surfaces held only by braze do not. True demibloc is silver soldered by the way, not brazed. Considering that barrels are the most "consumable" part of a shotgun the monobloc is the only system that makes provision for this eventuality. Personally I would rather do a simple tube change than sleeving or rebarreling.


As to the original question re chronology and quality. Over the years I have dismantled many shotguns. There is no visible quality difference that can be based on date of manufacture. However, there are differences even among guns by the same maker, mostly on the wood to metal fitting. So far the best overall internal work I have ever seen inside a SXS was a pinless hand detachable sidelock by Fabbio Zanotti made in the 1980s.

Re the fit and finish issue. In some English sidelocks I have seen the impressions of lock screw slots in the wood. Now, those were definitely NOT chiselled out after smoke fitting. A stockmaker friend insists that they are made by soaking the wood in linseed oil and pressing the locks onto the wood for a kind of forced fitting. In his opinion this is not a kosher way to fit locks. All the guns I have seen with this trait are prewar.

Shotgunlover: You just moved the goalposts from your previous post. You weren't talking about 12/20's in general. Rather, your reference was to the LANCASTER 12/20. If you have some evidence indicating that all LANCASTER 12/20's were made in Birmingham, please present it to back up your previous statement. Otherwise, probably wise to admit that you overstated your case in favor of guns made in Birmingham.

Originally, a "best" British gun had to be London-made. Of course that can be disputed, and some makers did indeed dispute it. But the top London makers did a pretty good job of selling that concept to the public.

The pin marks that you see in the in-letting of the stock are made by the stocker or finisher who "usually" uses a tool that is heated and then pressed into the wood to create the effect. . A type of branding. Most all top drawer sidelocks will have this treatment, pre or post war, doesn't matter. Consider it a nice touch, a little pride on the stockers part.

L.Brown, I do not have handy the book by Crudgington re the 12/20, but I am pretty sure you will find reference to the 12/20 there.

Although I own one of Birmingham's "best" my favorite is not among English guns at all. So believe me, there was no intention to favor one English city over another. However, knowing how the trade functioned, it is likely that no London gun was 100 per cent London made. The same is I believe true today. As far as I know case hardening, barrel blacking, and some other jobs are still handled by outside shops, mostly not in London.It is possible that with current environmental regulations such jobs are by necessity carried on outside city limits.

The definition of "best" that includes manufacture in London reminded me of Gough Thomas' comments re Burrard's London bias. Understandably so since Thomas lived near the New Forest and Burrard in West London.

Le Fusil, the process of branding you describe would account for the pin impressions. But what about the positive imprints of screw slots and other marks?

The "tool" has a slot cut into it like to match the pin. The stocker I know has a variety of sizes that he has made for that purpose. A clarification, when talking Brit guns, a pin joins metal to metal, a screw joins metal to wood.

Shotgunlover, I toured the H&H factory in 2001. At that time at least, they were doing everything "in house". I'm pretty sure the same was true of Purdey, and for that matter of Scott in Birmingham before they went out of business. A lot of gunmakers did have some of their work done "in the trade" by outworkers, but some were certainly capable of making a gun from start to finish. Of course in the case of a bespoke gun, the client could always request that the engraving, for example, be done by an engraver not employed by the company making the gun.

Case hardening and barrel blacking are never carried out "in house" at H&H or Purdey or Boss, the case hardening is done by St Ledger, the barrel blacking by two people in a house outside central London who keep the chemical mix a secret as does St Ledger best, Mike

I happen to know Richard St Ledger and know his work and his exclusive status in the English gun trade. At our first meeting he was amused by me asking which is the fastest way to remove case hardening colors! The man really knows steel.