doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com English Bests

Some of the attributes (and they are very imprecise and difficult to list) of a 'best' is that quality and 'as near perfect as possible' count - price doesn't.

You may get a superb double at 2000 Euros (but more likely a good and good value value one rather than a superb one), but you won't (in my book anyway) get a true 'best' double if you put price above other factors, or even on the priorities list.

Economy of price simply isn't what 'best' is about.

John, I agree that while price is not the only factor, it is certainly ONE factor in a "best" gun . . . if you believe that "best" includes the best wood and superbly-executed hand engraving. But you can certainly find guns that put form above function and attempt to attract buyers via eye appeal only--and they're not bests either.

Shotgunlover, I wish you well in your endeavor!

I think it depends on how you look at it. I agree price - in one sense will be a factor - in that everything has a price, and for a 'best' gun - its likely to be a high(ish) one.

But really - a best gun should be build as a 'best' - and the price sort of drops out at the end! A best can't really be built down to a price - or it wouldn't be best - equally - just because something is expensive - it doesn't mean its a 'best'.

The phrase - 'money no object' springs to mind, though it doesn't correctly sum up what I mean.

A better way of putting it would be to make it as well as you possibly can, then add up the cost afterwards.

John,

I am all for the "build it as well as you possibly can" bit, but it would also be nice to be credited for the bits left out. Like not being charged for the engraving, and the fancy walnut if you choose to do without them.

Perazzi do that for you, give you a price for the basic functional gun, and quote the ornamenation on a pro rata basis, as do others.

In some client's definition of best, (and we are talking bespoke here so the client has the final say), ornamentation and fancy wood might not have a place.

To take this a bit further. There are quite a few features that can be left out and still end up with "best" in terms of quality of execution, feel and balance. To give my list- fancy wood, engraving, monogram oval, self cocking, ejectors, self opening, auto safety, chopper lump barrels. Yes I am talking about a well built, plain hammer gun with Boehler monobloc barrels, superb balance and handling and there is no way in the world anyone can convince me that 35 000 sterling is a fair price for such a gun.

The problem I have with using price as a determinate is some of the top names probably have a much higher gross profit margin than lesser known makers for equal quality. And they are able to demand the price partially based on their historic reputation. Nothing wrong with it but it should disqualify cost as a basis for judging a best.

I've got some older English sidelocks and some newer ones, one made in the 1980's and one made in the 1990's. In terms of these newer guns, I can't really tell all that much difference from the older guns in terms of quality with the exception that they are newer, much newer and because these newer guns were made with CNC machines, their metal to metal fit seems slightly more precise and the actions slightly smoother. Not totally sure if this perceived smoothness is due to more precise tolerances or if it is because of the fact they haven't been in existence and have not been used for a hundred plus years. Also, with the newer guns, the barrels appear perfectly 'struck' and a little more precisely than the very old guns. Again, I'm not sure if this involved a machine in the striking of the barrels on the newer guns?? In terms of gun weight I have chosen to buy only guns that weigh 6 1/2 pounds or less for a game gun, so no difference there in the old vs the new. Having said all this I have to say I like the older guns and the newer ones pretty much on an equal par. One nice thing about the new guns, I don't have to be so careful shooting only low pressure shells, which for me is an advantage in the Grouse woods where I like to shoot a shell with authority.

That's what I think, Joe, but you put it in words perfectly.

[quote=Shotgunlover


To take this a bit further. There are quite a few features that can be left out and still end up with "best" in terms of quality of execution, feel and balance. To give my list- fancy wood, engraving, monogram oval, self cocking, ejectors, self opening, auto safety, chopper lump barrels. Yes I am talking about a well built, plain hammer gun with Boehler monobloc barrels, superb balance and handling and there is no way in the world anyone can convince me that 35 000 sterling is a fair price for such a gun. [/quote]

It's going to be difficult to convince me & a lot of other people that "best gun" & monoblock barrels belong in the same sentence. Chopper lump for sure, dovetail lump probably, shoe lump possibly but IMHO monoblock barrels are serviceable but they are not found on best guns.

I entirely agree that 'best' doesn't have to include 'bells and whistles'. Lets also not forget that a 'best' can be a boxlock or a trigger plate (certainly in my view). In the extreme, a plain non-ejector boxlock of exemplary workmanship and material quality could be described as 'best'.

There are best quality boxlocks (e.g. Westley Richards for one) and trigger plates (e.g. Dickson) in which the barrels, workmanship and attention to detail would match their best sidelocks. The end result may have a lower price tag, but in my view, its no less a 'best' gun simply because its a less complex item. It has still been built to 'best' workmanship quality and materials standards where no corners have been cut in the execution.

Brittany Man,

Beretta's SO series are all monobloc, most would rank them as "best". All sleeved chopper lumped bests are ersatz monoblocs and they do not seem to lose their "best" designations.

Technically speaking there is no way a chopper lump can outclass monobloc in my mind. The thought that the breech ends have been heated to 650 plus centigrade to induce braze flow gives me the creeps. Add to the monobloc replaceable hook and bite shoes (a la Parker) and you have an infinitely repairable double. But to each his own when it comes to bespoke.

John- the Round Action is KING! The late Geoffrey Boothroyd had sent me a photo of a 16 gauge side pedal Dickson and it still ranks as the best looking SXS I have ever glimpsed. The form of that action is so elegant it would be sacrilege to conceal it under engraving.

The design I am working on tries to keep as close as possible to the DRA shape, the trigger plate principle while eliminating the superfluous. An ABS plstic prototype has been built using the CAD drawings, and it looks good (to me anyway).