doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Repairing a German "Martini"

I acquired a non functioning �Martini� stalking rifle and I'm hopeful that someone on this forum might have a similar rifle or have some knowledge regarding this action.
The barrel and action have the following markings:
Barrel-W Weisgerber, St. Wendel, AW, Crown over BGU, 172,28, 8.11, 718, 1096
Front of action #1096
Breach block DRGM
I interpret the markings to show that the rifle was proofed in August 1911 and was originally chambered for the 8.15X46R cartridge. It was made or retailed by Herr Weisgerber , who was from St Wendel. The serial number is 1096. A chamber cast confirmed the caliber, although the chamber has a thicker rim than the standard 8.15 X 46R.
The rifle stock showed signs of extensive use but no major damage. The lever was bent and the triggers were inoperative. On the plus side the numbers on the barrel and action matched and the bore is in excellent shape.
On disassembly the �Martini� proved to be a �pseudo-Martini�. It employed a striker action that was located behind the breach block which contained a separate firing pin. The triggers were intact but the sear was locked into the striker notch and was repaired by correcting the engagement angle. The lever was bent back into its original shape and everything seemed to function until a cartridge was test fired. On firing the action locked shut and most probably explains the bent lever. After disassembly to remove the spent cartridge, the strange action mechanism was finally appreciated.
The striker is cocked my the rotation of the breach block and the breach block can't rotate with the firing pin buried in the primer.
A friend pointed out that the Germans didn't make rifles that didn't work and the rifle shows evidence of extensive use. I think that the current mechanism may be an unsuccessful attempt to replace broken or missing parts which might also explain the poor striker-sear engagement angle.
Does any one recognize this action? It looks similar to the �Buchel Martini� pictured on page 347 in Alte Scheibenwaffen Vol. #1
Does anyone have a similar rifle or have any idea as to how these actions were originally designed to cock the striker ?
Any history on W Weisgerber from St Wendel?
Otto
[img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Buchel/Buchel1_zpsf727019b.jpg[/img][/img]
[img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Buchel/Buchel2_zpsfaf51c80.jpg[/img][/img]
Action in fired position:
[img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Buchel/Buchel3_zps58516f31.jpg[/img][/img]
Action in striker cocking position:
[img]http://[IMG]http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/Buchel/Buchel4_zpsd470c9b5.jpg[/img][/img]

Otto,
If there is no way to adjust the fireing pin,it may be a replacement, made too long.I don't have the rifle in hand, but it seems that the mainspring doesn't allow the firing pin to retract,until it is cocked(like you described).One way to handle this is to make a fireing pin(or modify the old one), so that it doesn't doesn't protrude past the face of the breechblock with the rifle uncocked.This would have to be an inertia type pin, with a spring to hold it rearward.I had a similar problem with a German fallingblock rifle,until I discovered that there was an adjustment that allowed the hammer to "fall back"enough after fireing that the fireing pin could retract to flush with the face of the breechblock. I can't tell if your rifle has any such adjustment.On the other hand, you could just rid yourself of the problem by selling it to me at a big discount, since it it is "busted".By the way,the rim recess may have been recut to allow cases made from 30-30 to work w/o thinning the rim.Some Martini type breechblocks won't rise enough to strike the primer in the center,if the rim is thicker than the rim recess.I hope this helps.
Mike

Mike,
Thanks for your reply and your kind offer to relieve me of this busted rifle. I'll have to pass on your offer, as my Martini gun cabinet is like the roach trap. The Martinis check in but they don't check out.
I made an inertial firing pin at the suggestion of a friend, as it looked like a way to get this rifle shooting without making any permanent changes to the action. The resulting firing pin allows the action to function normally but fails to fire a large rifle primer. Trying a large pistol primer is next.
An additional challenge in adjusting how far the firing pin protrudes in the front and back is that I've run out of material in the rear firing pin section where the adjustments are made and the retaining screw is located. I can make a firing pin with a longer rear section but then I'll have to deepen the rear breach block recess to maintain a firing pin no longer than the breach block.
On your rifle, what mechanism was used to retract the striker?
Were inertial type firing pins used in rifles from this period ? I don't think that I've ever seen one.
Do you think that there is a missing part that retracted the striker?
Are there any tricks to maximize the effectiveness of inertial firing pins?
Otto

Otto,
In the gun I described, the mainspring was a leaf spring and a screw limited the travel.The hammer,could fall back since it was no longer under spring tension.The firing pin is on the hammer, so it falls back with it.The adjustment lets you stop it at the face of the breech block, to keep the primer from flowing into the hole.
In another rifle, I made three fireing pins before I learned you have to let the primer stop the forward progress.I took careful measurements and made it stop against a small spring(to retract it)and the frame, with the protrusion I was looking for(it was enough to ignite a primer). It acted like yours, fireing sometimes and sometimes not.I finally made it longer in the front, but the same overall length(so it would be flush at the breech face (it is a tip-up).Also hardenen it before you try it( harden it so the tip is spring hard and the back is chisel hard).It is my theory that the frame stoping the pin took too much inertia out of it, that should have gone to the primer.
I kind of specialize in busted rifles, I can't afford good ones.
Keep trying, you will finally make it work.
Mike

Hello chipmaker,

there is still living a hunting weapon trader named Dieter Weisgerber in St. Wendel. May be he is a descendant:

Dieter Weisgerber Waffen
Kelsweilerstr. 2
66606 Sankt Wendel
Tel.: 06851/2623 Fax: 06851/2623
Germany

Maybe he can tell you anything!?

I do not know much about falling block rifles, but stumbled over this one and it seems to be interesting?


http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4083363

Kind Regards,
Gunwolf

Gunwolf:
That falling block at auction looks akin to an Alex Henry, so I'd bet it was sourced from Johann Kalezky??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Mike. It really bothers me that I can't figure out how the action was originally set up to function.
I made a series of inertial firing pins over the weekend including one that allowed the rear of the firing pin to extended to the striker and tip to extend .100" beyond the breach block face. With and without a retracting spring, the best it would do is to create a small dimple in the primer that did not fire the primer. I've come to believe that the firing pin is too light to properly function as an inertial firing pin.
I wanted to avoid any action changes but it looks as if It might need one to function. I made a fixture to hold the action parts so that I can test any changes without the frame obscuring something. It was very helpful in testing the firing pins.
Gunwolf. Thank you for Dieter's information. I'll contact him.
Otto

Dieter Wei�gerber:

E-Mail: dieter-weisgerber@web.de

Gunwolf

Raimey,

there is written : Maker: Reicher Graz (Austria)
I don't know any more about.

Best Regards,
Gunwolf

Otto,
I feel pretty foolish giving advice about your rifle, you know as much as I,in general, and much more about this rifle, in particular.If you can't increase the weight, I can see where you would be perplexed.While it will seen counter intuitive, another problem I worked out may help.I built up a wildcat on a new Anschutz(?)centerfire action that had never had a barrel installed, therefore the firing pin had never been tested.After doing all the work to fit up and chamber the barrel, it wouldn't fire.I finally noticed that the firing pin protruded about .100". I cut it back to about .060", and didn't have any more problems, except with CCI 41 primers, which are extra hard.My theory(which may be wrong)was that the long tip stopped the firing pin from moving far enough to build up enough speed to generate the force to ignite the primer.These things are always hard to"figure out", and when you do, you think "why didn't I see that?". Are you ready to let it go yet? BTW the fixture seems like a very good idea.
Mike