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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
well then, buy all means fire up the furnace and start cookin dem receivers Here we go again...  Pete
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,632 Likes: 14
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,632 Likes: 14 |
Just a further clarification: during the CCH process does the surface pick up additional carbon and that is what lends to the color and thin veneer of hardness? I always assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the molecular structure did change slightly at the surface (to create the hardness) and that the color was a function of the material that was in the fire--the bone, leather and charcoal, pee whatever. I'd love to hear Miller's opinion and some others on this. thanks!
[IMG]
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,292
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,292 |
Doug,
Do you do color hardening for other collectors than yourself. Your work is exceptional!
Larry
Thank you kindly for your compliment Larry, PM sent.... Best,
Doug
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,756 Likes: 99
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,756 Likes: 99 |
uh...could you guys maybe, get a room?
keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,200 Likes: 1172
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,200 Likes: 1172 |
he a we go a gain...
Heating any shotgun receiver without controlling the temperature and heat duration is potentially dangerous and can damage guns and potentially harm shooters. If a shotgun receiver is heated to critical temperature, such as that required for the bone charcoal surface hardening process to be effective, then the structure of the surface metal has been changed and the metal should be tempered back to provide some elasticity. Otherwise, the receiver is as brittle as glass and may crack upon firing of the gun.
Incorrect tempering of receiver surface metal is the inherent flaw in the use of the high heat bone charcoal process when applied to shotgun receivers. A dangerous situation may develop as a result of incorrect tempering of the receiver surface metal after the high heat bone charcoal coloring process is completed. This is particularly true of older shotgun receivers, made prior to ww2. Factory tempering specifications were inconsistent, as receiver metallurgy formulas changed from time to time. Unfortunately, much of the original factory hardening and tempering specifications have been lost. Even the best of mechanics are only guessing when they attempt to correctly re temper a shotgun receiver after subjecting it to a high heat bone charcoal hardening process.
Quality case coloring should provide cosmetic enhancement without endangering gun integrity or shooter safety....Be careful if you are contemplating sending your prized shotgun's receiver to a high heat bone charcoal mechanic.. He is going heat it up to around 1500 degrees F... Make sure that you get it in writing, that if the receiver warps in the heating and tempering process or that if it cracks after firing, then the mechanic will assume full financial responsibility for the destruction of your gun and/or your personal injury.
A low, controlled heat process, combined with specific chemicals is the safest way to recolor a shotgun receiver. So long as the heat is kept low and controlled, the original receiver metallurgy and heat treatment is not changed. No harm is done to the gun nor is there any potential for danger to the shooter, as a result of the re coloring process.
In summary, shotgun receivers should never be rehardened in the vain interest of restoring the cosmetic effect of case colors. Case hardening is a high heat process which alters the surface molecular structure of the receiver metal. Rehardening a receiver can warp it. Subsequent efforts to straighten the metal, either by bending or filing can only harm the fine original metal-to-metal fit and adversely alter the workings of carefully aligned internal shotgun parts. In addition, if the receiver surface metal is not correctly retempered after the hardening process, then the receiver metal may be too brittle and as a result, may crack upon firing.
Ed, Have you not ever seriously considered, in the face of such overwhelming opposition to your views, and with absolutely no supporting posts from others, that YOU MAY BE WRONG! ? "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end of which is destruction"......Proverbs 14:12 SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
ed's descriptions show a considerable lack of understanding of steel metalurgy.
point - case hardening has almost nothing to do with strength and a lot to do with preventing wear. Bone charcoal CC'ed receivers will be low carbon steel. If a receiver is not adequately strong before hardening, it will not be strong enough after hardening. The engraving on a soft receiver will wear away quickly compared to the engraving on a cased receiver.
point - the colors and the hard case are fundamentally independent of each other. Steel can be case hardened without colors and it can be colored without hardening.
point - the colors are aesthetic, not structural. Note that guns continue to function as designed long after the CC is worn away. It is well known how to produce generic case coloring. However, the accurate reproduction of CC specific to a maker, trade, time period, etc. is very difficult.
DDA
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,126 Likes: 196
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,126 Likes: 196 |
Hi
I know that this can be an extremely fiery subject no pun intended so just to add another slant on the colour case hardening theme, it has been a sort of life long interest of mine to collect now no longer used Brit Engineering oddities.
I won’t bore you with the details how I came across this method of colour case hardening.
Here in Britland during and just after the end of WW2 all sorts of products where in extremely short supply or just not possible to get hold of included in this where engineering sundries of all kinds.
Now just to put things in order during and just after the war the Government encouraged us Brits to grow vegetables in our gardens, yes it is true we are a nation of garden lovers even today and I include my self. Well that being the case garden products where not hard to obtain at all in fact rather a lot of it about and one in particular was a fertilizer known as Blood Fish & Bone (That is exactly what it is). Which is still used here today in quite large quantities in what we call “organic gardening”, well an enterprising company used this product mixed with redundant Gas Mask charcoal to make their own colour case hardening product. I was assured it worked extreemly well and was shown a Micrometre trial piece that had been processed using this mixture and it had extremely passable case hardening colours. They do say “necessity is the mother of invention” at the same time our German cousins where using a standard Nitrate based fertilizer to Nitre Blue steel!!!!
The only lessons in my life I truly did learn from where the ones I paid for!
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
In Roy Dunlaps book "Gunsmithing" which as I recall was originally written in the 1950s he gave a formula for mixing a hot salt bluing solution using Ammonia Nitrate fertilizer & Lye. I tried a batch of it once & it did give an exceptionally good blue. It had a lot of sludge in the tank & was not very efficient to use due to that. It was Economical but apparently the inert portion of the fertilizer I used was different from what he had used as he did not report any problems in that regard.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
Miller,
You are a trove of information.
Pete
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553 |
I remember a cute little paragraph in one of MacIntosh's books (I'm nearly sure) about a story in a London pub near the Gun Quarter ,about some old Gunsmith cch'ing an action by wrapping it in newspaper, well drenched in his "filtered ale" & then stuffing it in the middle of a good hot coal fire?...he didn't report how it turned out..:)...maybe he could vary the colours be changing brand beer??
It is fascinating how it works..colours are so nice.
franc
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