doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Repairing a German "Martini"

Gunwolf.
Thanks for Dieter's email address. I sent him an email and have asked a friend to call him to see if he speaks English and is willing to correspond with me.
Mike.
One of the things that I've never been accused of is knowing everything, so I do appreciate your advise and comments even the ones that don't work. I'm just about ready to give up on the inertial firing pin. The one critical dimension is its length which must be no longer than the breach block or the firing pin hangs up on the primer. The length that it extends front and back, the presence or absence of a retracting spring, firing pin tip diameter, and hardening all were unsuccessful in improving ignition. I've started to think of ways to retract the striker before the breach block rotates. The striker only needs to go back .060", to allow the firing pin to retract, before it is picked up by the rotating breach block, which completes the cocking.
Otto

Otto,
I'm sorry we haven't been able to find a quick and easy answer to your problem.Early 8,15x46Rs are sometimes like early 9.3x72Rs,in having problems with ignition,brought about by the first primers used in these cartridges.They were both made,in the begining, with 6.45mm(.254")Berdan primers,M71.This primer had a softer cup than we use now,and the larger diameter primer is easier to dent than the .210" primer we use today( I understand the M71 primer was developed because of problems with misfires in the Mod 1871 Mauser).Since you have been in the game a while,you may have some of the old cases in your "junk box" to try.The 6.45mm Berdan primers may be a little problematic, if you don't already have some.Both RWS and Alcan had them, not too many years ago.I suggest you try the best pin you have with the large Berdan primer, to see how it works. I could mail you a couple old cases,but sending a few primers would lead to complications, so it would be better to find them locally.
Other than this, I guess,keep trying would be the only thing left to do.I agree that the overall length is limited to the length of the breechblock.Within this it seems the only things to vary would be the tip protrusion,the rear end protrusion, and spring tension. To quote the King of Siam, "Is a puzzlement".
Mike

Gunwolf.
Dieter Weisgerber is the grandson of W. Weisgerber. He was kind enough to answer a few questions about his grandfather, that I thought would interest some of the forum members. Wilhelm Weisgerber was born in 1866 and died in 1920. His business records were lost during WW-2. He did use Buchel system actions in making his rifles.
Mike
The problem with this rifle isn't with the ammunition. After firing, the firing pin is kept pushed into the primer by the striker and can only be retracted as the breach block rotates. However the breach block can't rotate because the firing pin has it locked up.
There must have been a mechanism for retracting the firing pin before the breach block rotates but whatever the mechanism was, it is no longer obvious and may have been lost at the time of the prior unsuccessful repair.
A local gunsmith has examined the rifle and has confirmed the preceding analysis. He suggested a lever extension to initiate striker retraction prior to breach block rotation but I've been reluctant to modify the the action. I was hoping that a forum member might have a Buchel actioned rifle and could describe how Buchel handled this problem.
Otto

Otto,
I understand, and understood when I wrote the bit about the ammo.My understanding was that someone had made another firing pin, thinking the original was too short.The new pin is too long to work(exactly as you described), but the question was if the original pin would fire original ammo.You may have to install a stronger coilspring to make it work, with modern primers.
Mike

Mike,
I can't tell if the firing pin that came in the rifle was original or newly made. It was slightly bent and certainly didn't work. I made a several new firing pins of variating lengths and one with a retracting spring. When the firing pin was short enough to allow the action to function, it wouldn't reliability fire the primer. Likewise a floating firing pin appears to be to light to properly function.
Do you think that the original design had no provision for independent firing pin retraction before the breach block began to rotate?
Otto

Otto,

Look here, maybe it can solve you problems. The second system is rhe "B�chel" System!!! Nice details!

http://www.feuerbixler.de/history03.html

Best Regards,
Wolfgang

Otto,

Please Note: Die Firma Ernst Friedrich B�chel in Zella Mehlis hat insgesamt sieben verschiedene Systeme auf den Markt gebracht.

That is: he built seven different systems!

And: he built rotating Block systems as well as vertical block systems!

B�chel, Ernst Friedrich
Ernst Friedrich B�chel, B�chsenmacher in Zella Mehlis .
Entwickelte zwischen 1906 und 1909 mehrere Blockverschl�sse:
1. Drehblock-Verschlu�
System B�chel Ideal
System B�chel Stecherspanner
System B�chel Brillant
System B�chel Meister
2. Vertikalblock-Verschlu�
System B�chel Concurrenz



Best Regards,
Wolfgang

Otto,
I don't think it did have an independent system to withdraw the firing pin(other than a spring), otherwise I suspect you could see some sign of it.Since it is necessary for the pin to be no longer than the breechblock, it is also necessary that it be withdrawn(in some manner)for the striker to hit it.Making the rear of the pin protrude more would increase the speed, therefore inertia,as would a stronger mainspring.While I'm not one to modify these older rifles,sometimes it is necessary when the original system would fire original ammo, but not modern.Of course this assumes orginal ammo can't be reproduced or it's not convienent to do so. My Mod 71 Mauser would not fire modern primers(even pistol primers), until I replaced the mainspring with one that was much stronger.I have not had a misfire since." If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer".
Mike

Wolfgang
Atte Scheibenwaffen (Vol#1) has a good discussion of C. Buchel and his rifles. It seems as if he preferred hammer actions but the "Concurrenz" and "Martini" models both used striker actions. The illustrations in the book and in the "feuerbixler link" both show that in the "Concurrenz model", a lever extension retracts the firing pin/striker immediately as the lever is pushed down. The book illustration of the "Martini model" looks exactly like my action but only shows the striker and not the cocking details.
Mike,
I think that you may be correct, as there is no evidence on the current parts for a missing part. The unsuccessful repair may have been limited to the firing pin and possibly the striker hammer which could explain the lock up after firing, the bent lever and the incorrect sear angle.
The chamber rim has been lengthened to allow 8.15X46R cartridges to be formed from 30-30 brass without thinning the rim. This has caused the firing pin strike to be off center which may also contribute to the difficult primer ignition.
An inertial firing pin that extended all the way back to the striker hammer gave only a modest primer strike and no ignition. I did try a very strong main spring but haven't tried pistol primers.
I think that I made have to consider modifying this action.
Otto

Otto,

(with this fine german name you can read german..???)

maybe you can find some help here:

http://alfred-schilling.de/produktion/frame_pro.html

"....Seit diesem Jahr stellt die Firma Alfred Schilling ein eigenes Scheibengewehr mit achtkantigem, taillierten Lauf und Blockverschluss her, welches einer Konstruktion der Firma B�chel in Mehlis original nachempfunden wurde...."

Wolfgang