doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Importing an English SxS ~ Auction ~ Help!!!

Two normal terms international purchases. CIF Cost Insurance and Freight. Seller pays to your port of entry. FOB Free On Board seller pays to on board there port of exit, vessel or airplane of your choice. FOB is almost always cheaper, seller goes CIF he has to pad the expense to cover unforeseen. FOB you are in control and pay actual cost.

No seller in international transactions guarantees getting cargo through another country�s customs. Wall Mart buys FOB in China they take responsibility when it goes on the ship. That's how it works, not likely to change.

Boats

I did this once over ten years ago and from Spain not England so things may have changed. Bought and paid for two guns in Barcelona contacted my FFL to fill out form 6. You do need an FFL to help you. He knew nothing about a form 6 so I filled it out and he signed it. 4 weeks later we receive the approved form 6 back from the ATF. Spanish shop arranged shipment but only to Kennedy. I hire freight forwarder to take to Kansas where I was living at the time. If you have a customs office locally you can clear yourself easily. I made sure that the packaged is bonded all the way to Kansas so customs won't touch/stop/open it in New York. I send/fax a copy of the approved form 6 to Spain. A few days later I get a call from the local customs agent saying he has a package for me. I call my FFL and we drive to the customs office. The three of us walk over to the freight forwarder. Agent checks the guns' serial number against ATF form 6, we walk back to customs where he signs the import paperwork. No duties or fees were charged. They were beretta SO's so were modern guns. As anything involving humans, your experience will likely be different. I think this guy didn't charge the import duty because he didn't know any better. We took the signed import paperwork to the forwarder, picked up guns and drove to FFL store where he transferred them to me. Easy peasy

"ManOwar," when importing a gun from abroad into the United States, I employ the following practices, which can be abbreviated as follows: (a) I only import what is statutorily an �antique firearm� here, and I perform the qualifying research and make all necessary inquiries to ensure that particular legal classification is documented fact; (b) as most of my purchases are from various U.K. auction houses, I only use the professional services of an indigenous, appropriately licensed and knowledgeable agent to place my bid (usual agent cost is 10% of the winning bid amount) at time of auction and to take eventual custody of the piece if my bid is successful, who will double as a facilitator for the exportation of a piece purchased at auction for an additional fee, and provide me an independent condition report prior to the auction date (e.g. Vintage Guns, U.K.�highly recommended and outstanding; or Heritage Guns, U.K., etc.), in addition to the same sort of report and detailed photographic views requested from the auction house; (c) use only that foreign agent who also has a domestic FFL-holding connection or business association in the United States, which obviates the time-consuming and obnoxious need for me to hire a local customs agent and personally travel to the nearest international airport having a U.S. Customs office, or the remotest need otherwise to have anything whatever to do with the federal authorities; (d) the foregoing practices, with obvious adjustments, will work when dealing with brick-and-mortar firearms dealers abroad that offer export services and have that all important participating domestic connection or association (e.g. the aforementioned �Peter Dyson� company in England); and (e) once the antique firearms is arrived here and moved through and received from U.S. customs by the anticipating FFL-holder, to whom you will gladly pay the expected fees and rates, the "antique firearm" can then be transshipped by a domestic carrier (and insured), again at your cost, anywhere to anyone in the United States directly. I will not address the various costs and expenses beyond what were already mentioned, as other correspondents have graciously added amply to that knowledge base.

Presumably, those firearms earlier addressed as impressed upon importation with the U.S. importer�s stamp, in accordance with U.S. law, are modern pieces or "firearms," because federal agencies (and many state authorities) do not regulate �antique firearms.� This makes the import of the �curio & relic� firearm and �modern firearm,� i.e. the regulated �firearm� per se, a very different and much more difficult task altogether because of their strictly defined classifications and the imposition of certain statutory requirements. The importation of an �antique firearm� is normally completed within some number of weeks, assuming you have made the right choices and selection of assisting experts, where the norm attending the importation of a �firearm� is several months to completion.

In the interest of providing helpful information to the correspondents for the many forums on this site, let me clarify a point of confusion that I remark has arisen here and elsewhere on this website regarding the correct cut-off date for determining whether a gun is an unregulated "antique firearm," as that class is defined in the United States Code, or whether the gun in question falls instead under some other firearm classification that is regulated.

The relevant federal statute creates three firearm classifications: (a) "antique firearm," (b) "curio & relic," and (c) "modern." The first classification mentioned is wholly unregulated, while the latter two are indeed regulated and do require the participation of licensed dealers or collectors. The correct statutory cut-off date for a piece classified as an "antique firearm" is 1 January 1899. This correct date would be more commonly expressed, "pre-1899."

In the pertinent federal statute, "antique firearm," as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C. � 921(a)(16), means �

"A. any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898 (emphasis added); or

B. any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica �

i. is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

ii. any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term �antique firearm� shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or

C. any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof."

Please reference the remainder of the above statute on-line, if you have an interest in the other classifications, which I will not address here.

Without considering the sometimes confusing language within the parenthesis, which was itself added for clarification purposes, the statute's lede paragraph reads: "Any firearm manufactured in or before 1898." Do not confuse or conflate the black powder and muzzle loading or black powder replicas aspects of the above statute with the lede paragraph; they are but further refinements of the issue of muzzle loaders or replicas as antique firearms or not. In no manner do those aspects alter the basic legal point that any firearm "manufactured in or before 1898" (meaning: before and up to 1 January 1899) is an "antique," period.

If classified as an "antique firearm," which again means it is wholly unregulated by the federal government, the gun can be shipped via your or the dealer's/seller's choice of carrier anywhere to anyone in the United States. Some anti-gun states, however, have laws that cumber such transactions, although if you live in such a restrictive state, you will likely already know of the problem and know how to deal or have in the past dealt with the encumbrance. As well, in my experience, international shipments are best left to licensed firearms dealers and import/export experts that are experienced and have long dealt with firearm shipments. Personally, for the purpose of purchase (I do not sell my guns.) or refurbishment/repair, I have shipped from and received at home or office antique firearms, both domestically and internationally, via chosen carrier many dozens of times without interference from our federal or local government agencies. I am,

With my regards,


Edwardian



His Time Viewed from a Distance:

MAN O WAR: To make a difficult matter simple please contact John Farugia of Cheshire Gun Room, Stockport, UK. He has a web site www.cheshiregunroom.com John will expedite shipment of your gun and it won't cost you nearly $1,000 When I first started bringing guns over from England I contacted another gun dealer over there that didn't work out. Then I found John and actually went over to meet him personally. He is a pleasure to work with. He & his staff were at the Southern SxS at Deep River this year for the first time.

Best Regards, George

I have little of value other then a story. I was an importer/ exporter. I had a regular forwarder/expediter and was located at a port of entry. I bought a Victorian Clock at Brighton during a visit to the UK. I turned the details over to a business associate in the UK who was a regular shipper. The cost to ship the clock appalled me. The moral of the story is when you get out of your groove shipping internationally it gets complicated.

You are out of your grove and you are shipping a valuable object on an individual bases. Get help. If you are close to a port of entry, drop by a forwarder and ask questions, but don't use him. Use the knowledge gained to pick the best importer from the choices you have gotten. This first one is going to be expensive and maddening because you are learning. I can tell you it is easier to ship a container then it is to ship an individual package, so don't feel dumb. Once you learn the tricks of importing you may be tempted to have another go at it.

One other thing I had forgotten. If you bought a gun at English auction that had VAT added to hammer price, the Auction House/Shipper should fill out the proper paper work to have that VAT on the hammerprice refunded if the gun is exported.

A couple of issues that I don't think have been covered (please forgive me if they have):
The definition of antique in the UK is 2 years different from the USA. Any gun made AFTER 31st December 1896 is deemed a NON-ANTIQUE and is subject to an export licence. The application for this must be supported by an End User Undertaking and although the licence is issued for free by the UK government department, only someone registered on the government system can apply.
One way round this is to use someone with an 'Open Export Licence'. They will by necessity have a regular number of firearms being exported to the country in question and they must all travel through the same US entry port and FFL. They are by definition experienced in these matters, Harry Gordon is a good case in point. You will still need an End User Undertaking.
The licencing authorities are aware of the difference between the UK and US dates and will issue an export licence without a Form 6 if one explains the situation. Otherwise a 'Permission to Import' is required, ie an FFL Form 6.
Secondly, the cost of air freight from the UK has increased hugely recently as all the airlines are charging a 'lock up' fee of at least �100 ($160) plus increases of fuel surcharge etc.
I had a nice 1910 28g Westley Richards planned for export recently but because it missed the economies of scale by travelling with my antique guns, the export had to be shelved for the time being. Export costs were heading to $1000 or more including all the US end. And I have all the contacts but needed it there quickly.
Lastly, VAT is NOT recoverable on the buyers premium. Only VAT on the hammer price as specified in the catalogue is recoverable and that is subject to a time limit. So unless the catalogue says the 'VAT is chargeable on this lot at 5% (or 20%)' you can not reclaim the VAT on your invoice.

I might as well add my 2 cents.

I have used Joe Hall of Matched Pairs to export guns from the UK to the USA for me. I have been surprised at how quickly Joe gets the paperwork approved in the UK.

Just got 2 import permits back, form 6. 3 weeks

John Boyd
Quality Arms
Houston, TX