doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Question on a French SXS *More Pics Added**

Hello,

Was at a gunshow yesterday and this little 16 Ga. caught my eye. I like SXS and have a few drillings and really didn't need another but it was unique enough I knew it just had to follow me home but at $500 I am not sure if I got a good deal or not. There is a little wiggle between the barrel and fence with the forend off but if you slip a sheet of typing paper in the action you cannot slide it out so the play is minimal and should not effct function.

Barrels are 26" and pull to the front trigger is about 13 3/4" with about 1 1/8" of drop. I am not sure how you discribe the stock as it isn't the tranditional pistol grip or as pronounced as the Prince of Whales style and isn't a straight english style. It is a light gun tipping the scales at just a skoosh over 6 pounds.

From what I was told and can find the barrels, monoblock and lugs are all made from one piece of steel.

It has a really odd (to me) sight picture with the front site tucked down between the barrels and machined wing affair on the rear. It actually makes the front sight look closer than it really is.

Another item that struck me as unusual is that the Greener Style Cross Bolt that locks the barrel is Square,not round and the hole in the barrel extention is square as well and not round.

Chokes are a bit odd compared to what I am use to seeing the right barrel is actually tighter (full) than the left barrel (Improved Modified).

Anyhow I am looking for some information on the gun, aproximate age and value as well as who it may have been made by and if it is safe to shoot. Most of the markings are clear in the photos that are attached, let me know if you need to see something else. I am assuming the 6.5 indicates the gun originally had 2.5" chambers but at sometime they were extened to 2.75" according to my chamber gauge.

In case they are hard to see there is a on the water table:
PT with crown over it
PS with crown over it
Number 54

On the barrel Flats and barrels there are:
What looks like an EP, E backwards, inside a circle
16.8
6.5
2 R's back to back
PT with crown
PS with crown
3988
C.G.Paris
Rectifie in a semi circle
the letter S
the work Monobloc
The number 454

My concern is if it is rated for nitro powder and safe to shoot with moderate to light loads for bird hunting?

Pics below,, Any and all help appreciated....

Thanks,
DonT










[img]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/MilitaryDon/DSC05170_zpsb2e431f9.jpg[/img]

Welcome to the site.
It would sure be nice if you could get clearer pictures of the proof marks. As far as I can see it has St. Etienne single proofs of 14,223 psi. Still I'd like to see better pictures of the marks at the end of the barrel flats. There'll be others chipping in with more information.
Steve
BTW the barrel lengths are metric.

Can't help with the details although there are people on here who can, but that certainly looks like more than $500 worth of gun to me!

I'll be very interested to see what people want to call that grip (I'd call it "French.").

$550???
WELL we have all spent more than that on bubble gum !!
Much cheaper than a shrink!
Good for you
Enjoy the gal
Mike

Hi Don,
This gun is very early 20th century, as it is proved for both "Poudre S" and "T". Certainly made pre-WWI.
The EP is a Parisian proof mark.
I don't know who "CG" was, and even tough it says monobloc, I don't say any evidence of a sleeved construction.
Could you please post a close-in of the proof marks on the barrels? and of any other marking?

That would greatly help.
Best regards,
WC-

This grip is called "demi pistolet" i.e half pistol.
Very common in France....
WC-

Not what we call a half pistol grip, tho. Definitely "French." Wonder how it feels?

I like "open" or half pistol grips (or whatever the British call them--Prince Albert? Cavalier Spaniel? Wife of Bath?). This French one might be a little TOO open for my hands, but I'd like to find one and see.

WC, thanks for the information concerning the grip, I have the same type of grip on one of my French guns and I wondered if there was a name for the style. While I'm not crazy about how it looks, I'll concede that it's a very comfortable grip.
Steve
PS I just double checked my proof manual and wasn't able to find any Paris proof marks. What am I missing here?

You don't see nearly as many guns with Paris proofs as St. Etienne. Rockdoc, not sure what your proof source is, but Wirnsberger shows the Paris proofs, as does Baron Engelhardt.

That style grip is actually fairly common on French guns. The square crossbolt, not so much--but I've seen some. All the smokeless proofs except PT went away in 1914, so as WC says, it's a pre-WWI gun. The rib, with the short, raised section in the rear, is also typically French, as are the sling swivel studs. Looks like nice wood, a little engraving. R choke tighter than L is a little unusual.

I'd say you did well on the price.

Larry, I do have a 1976 edition of Wirnsberger's directory, I don't see any Paris proof marks on the gun. However, I did see what looked to me like St. Etienne proof marks, though they were so fuzzy by the time I'd enlarged the image I wasn't sure.
Steve

Check it out, courtesy of the Department of Redundancy Department.




Mine�s a 12 gauge, but very similar. It looks like someone has covered the rear sling mount hole with a oval.
Steve

Rcokdoc,

I would say that except for gauge difference yours and mine could be twins. Course yours is in nicer condition.

I will try to find my macro lense and get better pics of the markings later tonite...

Thanks Very much for the help so far, it is appreciated.

MNDon

In stocks, "comfortable" often translates to "dead bird." Could it be the French have got something right???? (I mean, besides public transportation, food and drink, hospitality in general, female style.....)

Handsome double, Doc.

Steve,
the description included an "EP" with a reversed E.
A better picture would greatly help...
I could not help but gasp when I saw on the picture a double R which looks just like the Rigby trademark. However, that just can't be...
Good gun for the money, I'd say.
Best regards,
WC-

WildCattle, I think a few months ago we saw a Gastinne Renette [sp?] with Westley Richards markings. Maybe there was some crossover.

Thanks Mike, French guns rock! Granted, they're not for everyone but if you want a well built, lighter than average gun (sometimes far lighter), with swamped ribs (indeed, no ribs occasionally), generally for an excellent price for the high quality gun your getting, it's hard to beat French guns. Several years ago we had a French SXS enthusiast who used to post. He was a very knowledgeable and friendly guy, unfortunately some of the onsite Francophobes (aka a$$holes) went out of their way to insult the guy and run him off. What a shame!
Steve

My grandfather fought alongside a Poilu regiment in WWI and came home with a French bride. So I guess I'm prejudiced, too. The other way. Still have his FRENCH and US medals, and a few of his guns.

Rockdoc, looks like slightly different scalloping to your action than Don's. Also, can't tell from your photos whether yours has the "plume" rib: short raised section over the breech, then diving down between the barrels. But otherwise very similar. You see very few doubles other than French with that style grip.

Larry, upon closer inspection the scalloping is different. As for the ribs, I have a 16 gauge with the "plume" rib. My 12 gauge has swamped ribs top and bottom, but not the plume style. What's interesting with MNDons gun is that it looks as if it doesn't have a lower rib at all. I'm surprised the gun even weighs 6 lbs, I'd expect it to weigh less than 6 lbs.
Steve

I have added closeups of the barrel flats. The watertable markings are clearly visable in the other photos. These are the only markings on the gun.

Hope this helps to clarify where, what and how.

Thanks,
DonT

Paris proofs for sure. I wonder if the RR(reverse R) is for something like Rene Gastinne Renette?

Also, I wonder if C.G. Paris is Charles Galand:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post170720
I believe the scattergun in the above thread also wears a C.G. Paris stamp.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

We normally think of European guns having their chambers designated in mm's as 65mm, 70mm etc but this one quite obviously doesn't have 6.5mm (.256") chambers. Was it common to mark the chamber length in centimeters or did someone just stamp a decimal at the wrong place?

According to my 1976 edition of Wirnsberger the gun has both Paris (backwards E combined with P) and St. Etienne (crown over PT) proof marks, or am I somehow mistaken.
Steve

Steve, the crown over PT is St Etienne--Paris should be a star over. But that's not the equivalent of the EP. That would be the crown between palm branches, which is usually seen on the barrels of a St Etienne gun right in front of the flats. I don't see that on this gun. But it is a bit odd that PT and PS are under a crown rather than a star, because the star should be the Paris smokeless proof.

There's something else strange on this gun. In one of the early photos, there's a gap from the front of the flats to the forend lug. In another one, and also later on, there's a large chunk of metal there, with 16.8 and the backwards E plus P Paris proof. I'm confused!

L. Brown.. I think it is just the way the pictures appear. Since the barrels, lugs and monoblock seem to be all one piece there really isn't a rib (per se) under or above the barrel, is is just deeply milled between the barrels.

What catches me as strange is that the first time I mounted the gun I thought it has a Mid Bead half way up the barrel that I hadn't noticed but in fact with teh "Plume" on the Breech end and front bead set way down between the barrels is creates an optical illusion making it seem the front bead is much closer than it actually is.

It is going to be very interesting shooting this gun since it appears the barrels will actually obscure the sight picture as compared to a SXS where the Rib actually puts the front bead above the barrels. Of course I shoot so poorly it won't make any difference.... LOL

Another couple of weeks and it should be nice enough here to venture out to the range so see how it shoots.

Any additional thoughts folks have will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!!
MNDon

MNDon,

My shootings awful, it used to be alot better but... long story. Anyhow, the first thing you should do is check the gun for point of impact. Here's an article I wrote for the 410 website that you might find useful http://www.fourten.org.uk/st_patterning.html

No sense in wasting a lot of shots on a poor fitting gun.

Steve

Steve,

Thanks that is excellent advice the a great article. I will make sure to try this first before heading to the trap range.

MNDon

Thats a great Gun for the price, lovely.Anyone know what the "Rectifie" stamp on both side of the extractor stem on the bbl flats means?
Repair, as in rectify ?, though I have no clue, just wondered.
Its sweet
cheers
Franc

That usually refers to choked barrels. It means regulated chokes. Not they ever marked the amount of constriction on most French guns.

Pete

Pretty rare, Pete--although I have seen "plein" (full) and "lisse" (cylinder), as well as the marking for the dispersion rifling (which some people mistakenly interpret as being a slug barrel). But not very often.

Hello guys,
After looking in my references, it turns out that a "canon monobloc" means that the entire assembly is built in one hunk of steel: both barrels, lumps, and maybe even the ribs.
This explains why there is no sleeve mark on that barrel set.
The English "monoblock" is "frette" in French and is totally different of course.
A one piece barrel set would be very difficult to do, especially back then.
Jean Breuil was known to do this.
I did not quite expect this but the French tradition is for the barrel maker to make the entire assembly, and not just the tubes. The Bernard thread is another indication of that.
Heurtier was silver soldering the tubes together, so he was building sets and not tubes as well.
Quite interesting...
The double R mark which is carbon copy of the Rigby trademark is still a major mystery.
CG will require more home work for authentication. I doubt that it is Galand, because Galand was putting his name on the barrels, and I have never seen a Galand gun with that CG mark.
Best regards,
WC-

Folks,

Thanks for the information, especially WildCattle. It looks like the markings are creating a real mystery for folks. Hopefully someone can clear up the CG mark and the back to back R's.

Again Thanks all I reall appreciate all the input.

MNDon

The 1922 catalog from Verney-Carron--a French maker renowned for their barrels, and in fact have made tubes for other makers for quite some time--does not show monobloc as one of the three methods portrayed of assembling barrels. However, they show two different versions of chopper lump. On the first, the lump is part of each of the tubes, but the rib is a separate piece. On the second, which they call "integral chopper lump", the rib is essentially chopper lump as well, half of it being part of each barrel/lump. This latter system V-C refers to as being "the most perfect barrel at this time".

Hi Larry,
You can look at the end of parag. 4 here. (In French)
Best regards
WC-

Somewhere along the line, I printed that article off and saved it. Looks like (at least initially) the monobloc guns were destined for very wealthy buyers: references to royal families. Maybe that changed later. I see that Breuil's gold medals came a decade or so after the V-C catalog to which I referred. But it could be that V-C simply chose not to give publicity to a competitor.

Certainly, the difficulties involved made it a very expensive endeavor.
For instance, there would be no way to fix a regulation issue. And you could expect the manufacturing yield to be much lower than assembled tubes.

Wilkes released O/U guns in that process not long ago, and even with the CNC technologies of today, which would make things incredibly easier to accomplish, the stuff is not cheap.

Best regards,
WC-