doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help identify a Charles Daly Damascus10 gauge.

I have a Charles Daly Damascus 10 gauge sxs with few markings and would like some help finding information about it. I'll take some pictures of the full gun soon but here are a few to look at.

Looks to be a Saur built between 1880-1890 as what ever called their Field grade. The date guess is based upon the lack of proof marks and country of origion stamps. The forend iron shows what could be a "Lindner bump" but I doubt it because of the lack of adornment. Might want to remove the forend and check the bottom of the barrels for two crossed pistols which would indicate manufacture by Lindner but I wouln't hold out much hope. The condition appears to be well worn but have it checked out by an expert. May well be the best duck gun you will ever have shot (with appropriate ammunition).

Looks like example Nr. 19 for H.A. Lindner under the 1st A&D patent/APUN number. Check the standing breech between the strikers for a APUN number:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post272601

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=291715&page=2

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The stamp on the breech face is Anson & Deeley 124 Brevete. The number 320, which can be seen in the 2cd picture, and the letters EW are stamped on the barrel under the forend. Here is one more picture I found with the serial(?) number.

Most interesting APUN #124. I would say that there are many who would like to know where the A&D APUN list might be as well as where the satellite stamping station was. I for one think it was in Liege & that it was centered around August Francotte even though the following August Lebeau is one of the few Belgian offerings I have run across that has the inverted stamp.


APUN #409/4091




August Lebeau 429

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The following U.S. of A. patent Nr. 172943 for William Anson & John Deeley allows for the protection of the design of Daly #19:

http://www.google.com/patents/US172943?p...876&f=false

While other Dalys with the overhanging scears is covered by U.S. of A. Patent Nr. 305264 on September 16th, 1884(Nr. 4089, August 26th, 1882 in Great Britian) being held by William Anson solely but referred to as the Anson & Deeley Safety Bolt:

http://www.google.com/patents/US305264?p...882&f=false

It is possibly that Daly Nr. 19 was made between 1876 & 1884.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here's a Lindner-Daly 10 bore that's not to terribly far ahead in the APUN nr.(686) but with serial Nr. 3031:

http://www.liveauctionworld.com/Diamond-Quality-Charles-Daly-10ga-Dbl-Bbl_i13171139
Nice stock, huh?






More than likely Emil Eckoldt is the culprit for the subcontractor


APUN - 686

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for posting the pictures. These early Prussian Daly hammerless guns are interesting, and the there is still quite a bit unknown about all their details. I have a hunch about the early hammerless Dalys that do not exhibit the Heinrich Lindner marks, but it is speculation so I hesitate to say much on these.

As Raimey points out, the APUNs are a interesting clue in putting the Daly timeline together. I own Charles Daly hammerless serial #7 ("Lucky #7") and its APUN is 65. With 11 serial numbers between Dalys #7 and #19, it is obvious, looking at the 59 number APUN delta between these two, that other makers besides the maker of these guns were taking advantage of the new and excellent A&D design - as you would expect.

FWIW, my estimate of your gun's manufacture date (late 1870s) is at the earlier end of the date range Raimey provided based on the patents and other Dalys noted in this range.

Ken

Ken:
Were all stamped with an APUN and where to you think the satellite stamping station might have been?

Kind Regards

Raimey
rse

Ken:
Do you think these makers to be solely Belgian, or a mix of Belgian, French & H.A. Lindner. I'm pretty confident that the A&D breechloader design protection was sought in France, but I am not sure about Belgium and I do not think it was filed in Germany.

Maybe they filed in the Countries where there would be the most competition and where international law might apply. Have no idea on the international law for the period.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This is great. It's good to have some info to tell my Father-in-law. It belonged to his father and he used it for goose hunting back in the day but didn't remember much about it before he passed. He was 93. Knowing the maker was my goal. It's too bad there isn't more info on em. Here is another photo I left out. Could a piece be missing from the forend?

I have a similiar Daily with Lindner stamping on the barrels. S/N 3262. The APN is 1220. Top rib engraved Charles Daily Extra Fine Damascus Diamond Quality. Dolls head rib extension and cocking indicators. No proof marks, no country of origin. Looks like Herringbone Damsacus barrels. All screws still timed. Blued frame. Straight back frame.
When I bought this gun, I cooresponded with the late John Mann, who figured the manufacturing date as between 1880-1890 due to lack of proof marks. Further coorespondance with Ken Georgi comfirmed the estimated date.
This is an extremely beautiful but heavy 12ga built with a short stock leading me to assume it was a water fowling gun.
Hope something here will help the OP and those who have thus far responded.
PS: I thought Lindner used Saur frames and that even GEORGE Lindner used a barrel stamp to identify. I'll dig back int John Mann's DGJ articles when I can- busy right now.

Unkleb,

The forend tip of your Daly is missing its horn insert. Dalys of this period were normally equipped with a decorative insert made of horn. Later guns featured black ebony inserts. The forend insert was a pretty standard feature of all the hammerless Prussian Dalys.

Raimey,

I have also wondered about the mechanics of executing the APUN requirement, but I don't have much insight into how it was actually done. WR obviously wanted folks to use their A&D patent to reap the financial benefits, and the gun makers were eager to use the new design. That said, it would have been cost prohibitive to set-up a station in every country. For pure volume, Leige would seem like a logical starting place to set up a station on the continent, but what about makers outside Belgium? How could a German gun maker legally make use of the patent? And was it illegal to use if it wasn't separately patented in Germany? These are great questions but I don't have any answers.

This situation was not confined to gun makers though so it would be interesting to see how it was handled in other industries with the same problem. Did a patent really need to be separately registered in every country on the continent to be effective, or was there some type of regional reciprosity?? I would be really curious how this all worked.

Cary,

There is a lot of evidence to suggest Lindner sourced his action forgings from Sauer. I am not aware though of a stamp/marking used by George Lindner. There are some other linkages between these guns and George IMO but unfortunately, a stamp, to my knowledge, is not one of them.

Ken

Ken:
I think most of the time when we look back in time we compress it and things were not as connected real time as we would think them to be. I performed a search independent of this thread,

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255451&page=2

& I still think WR & AF were very, very chummy, so in my mind all info points to AF as being the location for the A&D satellite stamping station. I would say that AF collected the protection schillings, but that is wild conjecture. I too wonder how chummy AF & Charles Daly might have been and if AF gave Daly a set of stamps for H.A. Lindner to use. Say he prepaid for 1000 units, or made monthly installments, would one not think that he was entitled to a set of stamps?

Will have to look to see if A&D hauling anyone into court outside of Britain. I don't think there to be many German examples that wear the A&D APUN outside of H.A. Lindner. I would say that the patentee sought protection in the countries where the his design was being peddled and drag the retailer into court. He should have deeper pockets than the actual mechanics.

Unkleb,

I believe a stab at the craftsman EW can be made & it may be that Georg Lindner was the one sourcing all the effort and facilitating the shipment to S,D&G. Can you provide an image of the area from the flats to the forend hanger?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Until I get my digital camera back this is the best I can get with a phone camera.

That's well enough for what I wanted to see. The mechanic EW was sourced early on and Ken must have the other early Daly example with the same initials. Below is a thread that you can sort thru the chaff and maybe find some info;

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=193231&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I believe it to be ground we have covered previously, but it appears Couchman was the fella who drug infringing folks into court:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OIIzAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA58&dq=anson+%26+deeley+patent+infringement&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mLpHUcL7CrPC4AOyyYGgAw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=anson&f=false
copy & paste

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Unkleb:

Can you measure the length of the water table or action for its length?

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

Thanks for directing me to the other thread. Great read.

From the breech face to the end of the water table is 2 1/2". With my lack of experience from what points do I measure the action?

unkleb:

Measure from the standing breech to the center of the hinge pin, which should be approx. where the water table has an inlet to mate with the forend iron.

I think Ken to be correct on the estimated production date, say 1877, and it may have been completed or experienced quality control at the old address of 120 Rasen Stra�e before the move was made circa 1877, when the whole lot moved to Schleusinger Stra�e 28, a move that more than likely was instigated by the influx of cash from a deal with Charles Daly(Schoverling, Daly & Gales). Here it would seem that there is a changing of the guard between his father Georg Lindner with Charles Daly to Heinrich A. Lindner and Charles Daly. It is possible that the all familiar Lindner control marks(actually 2) have an origin here. Boy would it not be nice to have a gander at the contract. H.A. Lindner was born in 1848 and he should have attained the rank of master by say 1872/1873. In about 4 shorts years he has a plan and a business modell that is centered around Charles Daly so on April 27th, 1877 he takes the plunge and marries Hedwig Trieble of another family of gunmakers. This relationship just about guarantees component sourcing. After he has been made whole here, he controls his own destiny, hence, his own crossed pistols trademark. This is probably is old hat to most but I just wanted to give a little background info to the situation.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This is gonna make a great story for my Father in law. He will be absolutely thrilled. I hope #19 has given you guys more insight on the Charles Daly Prussians and I'm amazed at the amount of collective knowledge within DoubleGunShop. You guys are incredible.

What is the best way to clean this old gun to get grime and dirt off of it?

More pics.

Nice effort on the images. The reason I inquired about the length is that Daly advertised/touted that his frame had more bearing surface being something akin or similar to a pigeon gun. 65mm was the typical length of the water table of the Daly Gun and I for one would say that this passed thru the Lindner shop. Was it that the dimension for typical boxlocks was 56mm?? I don't think we are positive of the frame source but evidence is pointing to a few makers and sometimes the frame filer's initials are on the crossbar/Purdey lockup seen in the well, or in the well itself. I wonder what the lowest Daly Gun with H.A. Lindner's crowned crossed pistols control mark might be. I'm curious what Ken's take on this might be now. Without a doubt, this is THE best site for multi-barrelled sporting weapons. It is searchable and the knowledge base of the members is quite deep.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Apparently I have my frame size dimensions incorrect and for sub 10 bores the dimension was 56mm with the standard being 48mm on a boxlock breechloader while the sidelock was 62mm. Not sure on the 10 bores at the moment but I did check a Sauer/Manhattan Arms from a little later and the dimension was right at 60mm, still 5mm shorter than the Daly Gun.

Ok all you Daly Gun fans, what is the lowest serial number with H.A. Lindner's crowned crossed pistols control marks?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Forgot to note the possibilities for the the initials EW might be E. Werner, E. Wagner or E. Wolf. I'd say E. Werner has the highest probability. At some point there was an E. Wahl of Zella Sankt Blasii but not sure when he hung out his shingle. E. would equate to something like Edmund, Ernst, etc. Many of the subcontractors hung out their gunamking shingle about the same time like Albert Stobbe in 1865 and Emil Eckoldt in 1876. I would expect that E.W. was at the end of his tenure as a gunsmith in 1877 as I don't recall it on later examples.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It would appear to me the length of the Action flat in the pic with the Stanley tape is falling dead on the 2�" mark. 2�" converted to metric = 63.5mm.
65mm = 2.559", only .0035" (less than the thickness of a sheet of 20lb printer/copy paper) shy of 2 9/16" (2.5625").

External clean up suggestions here, but the gun certainly deserves an internal check and clean by a doublegun specialist smith
http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/cleangun2.html

Wow. Truly great info from everybody. It's greatly appreciated and I thank you all. How would you put a value to something like this with all the unknown info? I have no intentions of ever selling it but what could it be worth?