doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Muzzle flip

I have most of MM's books, a really a big fan of his writing. But one time I found he missed the mark, when writing of muzzle flip with SxSs in the context of gun fitting. He advised that stock modifications for a properly fit SxS should allow for muzzle flip by putting the point of impact above the point of aim. Left me scratching my head, wondering why muzzle flip would take a vacation when shooting at the pattern plate, but come back home to lower the pattern to point of aim when shooting birds or targets.

Jay

Ditto.

that reads like more of the gunners' intuitive physics that we are all so familiar with than a reality. I would suspect that the off-axis bbls have as much to do with flip as the direction of the rifling. Are double rifle bbls rifled in opposing directions? Why not? Muzzle flip is derived from the geometry of the wood/meat interface and those silly energy/recoil equations. I can make just about anything flip like a MFer. And conversely reduce it to a minimum allowable by other dimensions. It's a system and rifle people are notoriously iggorint of proper gun fitting. Shotgun people marginally less so. Maybe.

I missed the ref to altering bbl harmonics by changing loads. Might be a clue to those pesky regulation issues in the rifles.

I could be wrong but I try to have Newton (y'know that energy, mass, force vectors kinda stuff) on my side so.......

have a day

Dr.WtS

i believe muzzle flip is also a funtion of pitch of the stock. I had an SKB 20 ga that kicked up like a mule. A gunsmith looked at it and said the moron who installed the pad had the opposite pitch required to fit me. He changed it and re-installed a pad and it really changed the "excessive flip"

Jerry

Not an issue for me, Larry, in competition or in the field. The only time it is an issue for me is if I try to compete with a straight gripped gun. I have said before that I do not have as secure control of the gun going into the second shot with a straight gripped gun as with a pistol gripped one. Many have commented otherwise, so it may be just me. But, the heavier the load the more it is magnified, so I think many here who use light loads just may not notice it.

I have never noticed any downward flip with a S x S. I am sure there is a bit of lateral flip, because the barrels are positioned in that manner( side by side). Stands to reason, because there is upwards flip with an O/U, more pronounced with the top barrel as it is farther away from the "center line". But, sideways movement is never noticeable to me. It is there, tho', and regulation takes this into account. If it weren't there, convergence at the muzzles would not be necessary to counteract it.

SRH

Interesting perspectives. I think some of the discussion is confusing flip, which happens before the projectile(s) leave the barrel (otherwise it would not impact where you hit) with recoil. Recoil is always going to cause some upward movement of the gun, but if that had an impact on point of aim, then all guns would shoot high.

Not sure how important it is in the grand scheme of things. Re Churchill and his XXV guns, part of the discussion that caused me to post the question was the contention that shorter barrels don't flip as much as longer ones. Which seems to run against the belief that longer barrels are an asset in target guns.

Who, before you, described flip as that gun movement which occurs before the projectile(s) leave the barrel? Maybe you are assuming what others are confusing?

Isn't what's important the end result of all the forces at work? What does it matter what occurs before the projectile leaves the barrel or what happens the instant after?

Not trying to be argumentative, but rather to understand the point of the question. The question was, how big an issue it is for S x S shooters. What the end result of all the forces at work is, is what causes any effect on a shooter. Right?

SRH

The issue of muzzle flip as introduced by Larry pertains only to where the shot charge hits, not to any interaction between the gun and the shooter. Muzzle flip as described by MM is a downward flexing of the barrels that causes the gun to shoot lower than it would if the barrels were rigid.

Jay

In a SxS the right barrel will flip up and to the right; the left will flip up and to the left. When barrels are regulated they are adjusted to negate this flip. However, they can only be regulated for one mass of projectile and one velocity. This is a little difficult to see in a shotgun but is very obvious in a DR.

An O/U will flip upward.

However hard I've tried to detect flip in my shotguns using normal loads, I never could be convinced I culd see it.

However, in a DR it is very obvious.

That's exactly what I meant when I said, "Isn't what's important the end result of all the forces at work?". The interaction between the gun and shooter absolutely influences where the shot charge hits. Much happens before the shot charge clears the barrel. All of it influences the impact.

SRH