doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The perfect ruffed grouse gun.

On another topic here (about changes coming at Arietta), the subject of gun weights came up. The comparison was made between vintage English and modern Spanish shotguns, and the pros and cons of each. Hopefuly, this thread will further clarify that subject. To start, I am sadly afflicted by the need to travel to Northern Minnesota every year to walk forest trails in search of Bonasa Umbellus (ie. the Ruffed Grouse). Much to the dismay of my wonderful spouse, I've expended a great deal of thought, time, and money to somehow improve this situation in a way that tips the scales in my favor when faced with this particular bird. I have ferried many a gun through the tender mercies of TSA to be field tested in the boreal forests along the Canadian Shield. Ranging from good Spanish sidelock 12s to light English 20-bore hammerguns to nickel steel Model 12s. Duty calls, more later.

My favorite was a SKB M100 20ga with 26" barrels. It weighed in at 6.5 lbs

Recently I have favored a Bayard ( Pieper ) 28ga hammer gun with 28" barrels. Just under 6lbs. I like using the sling.

Pete

SKB 20ga Model 500 o/u 26" barrels

prussian sauer. 12 gauge, 26" barrels. weighs just 6 pounds!

William Powell 16GA 2 1/2" chambers 27" barrels, skeet and IC, 5 pounds 14 ounces,
or
Parker Reproduction 28GA, double triggers, beavertail, Q1 & Q2, straight grip, 5 pounds 10 ounces.
or
Parker VH 20GA, 2 1/2" chambers, straight grip, 26", IC & Mod
my favorite
Browning Sidelock 20GA, 26", IC & Mod, 6 pounds 2 ounces
my newest
E. Wilson 20GA, 2 1/2" chambers, damascus, 5 pounds 6 ounces

I'll second the Ithaca/SKB 100, 20 Ga., 6# even. I have also used the RBL 16 Ga. at 6#-4Oz. I can't feel much difference between the two, both fit. The Ithaca had seen a bunch of use on grouse when I lived "up nort"! Now I get a long weekend, maybe two, lots of pheasant hunting to make up for it.

Chief

Ahhh....finally a subject I know something about. I tend to agree with outdoor writer, Tom Huggler who made the following statement in his 'Grouse Hunting' video: "the best gun for grouse hunting is the one that fits you best and the one you have the most confidence in". A lot of truth in that statement, for sure!!

It is certainly true for me. Although I don't grouse hunt, the same idea applies to a quail gun. One my favorite guns for quail is my Miroku L-II 12bore, with 28" mod/full bbls. At 6 3/4 lbs and with its configuration, its not exactly the "textbook" quail gun. But it fits and that's what counts.

Its the bottom gun.

Not that there's anything wrong with the bookends on Gerry's list, it's just that I prefer what's in the middle for the king of North America's game bird. For me a 7lb. Parker Reproduction 12 with 26" bbls choked Skt & Skt2 or, a sub 6lb A.H. Fox Sterlinworth with 28" bbls choked IC/Mod. Wish the repro had double triggers...

I'm back. You folks have been busy. I see lots of 20s, a 16 and two 28s so-far. Here's my situation: I'm not much good with an over/under because I have an eye-dominance issue. With a side by side, the dominance issue isn't even a factor because the tubes seem to frame the shot quite nicely for me. An over/under, however, causes my opposite eye to become dominate and it can skew my shooting rather badly. I'm also fairly traditional and I've shot side by sides since my youth, so I don't really feel like I'm missing-out on much. I like side by sides, I like how they look and how they handle. So, like most folks, I have preferences. In Minnesota, I find myself walking a great deal in between actual shooting situations and almost all of that time is spent in fairly high-alert. This means that the gun is either at port arms or nearly so (I should also point out here that I hunt grouse without a dog). In the time I'm there, the leaves are in the process of falling, so I generally start-out hunting with fairly dense foliage that thins as the days wear on. The shooting is usually a fairly quick proposition. From the time you see the bird (or hear the flush) to when you shoot is usually no more than 2 seconds. What I have found that I need to be consistantly sucessful is: 1. a gun that fits very well, and 2. a gun that moves very quickly, even when I'm fatigued. From trial and error I have found that a gun that weighs about 6 pounds is the right weight for me to carry all day. I also seem to shoot a bit better if the tubes are around 28-inches long, because I tend to chop through my swing if they are any shorter. The guns I have used to do this "research" have included 12s, 16s, 20s, and 28s. The 12s always seem to be the most lethal, with 16s following as a close second. The 20s and 28s haven't performed well for me in these situations for a number of reasons, the biggest (after my questionable shooting ability) being pattern size and density. Light 12s are not common in this country, so they aren't generally well known here. The lightest 12s I've personally come across were all vintage English guns.

The only thing I carry for a field hunt where there's walking involved is a Beretta 687L 20. ga.

6 1/4 lb, 28" barrels. It carries well and has good dynamics so it's actually possible to hit something with it when the time comes.

The 3" capability means versatility. The triggers are decent. It's replaceable.

I take care of the eye dominance issue with good corrective shooting glasses.

I also practice with it. That helps the most.

My favorite grouse (and woodcock) gun is a W.J. Jeffery BLNE 28b, 26", 4# 5.5 oz. Very plain, border engraved, but light and very fast. I have several British 20 bores, and a 2" 12b, but I keep coming back to the Jeffery 28. It just seems to work for me.

My Parker VH - Forgot to mention that I had it stocked in my dimensions.




Forgot about my Francotte 16




William Powell 16Ga

My go-to grouse gun is this 16 gauge French SXS with 27" barrels that weighs in at 5 lbs 1 ounce.



Of course now I have the new gun I just purchased, a 12 gauge French SXS with 27" barrels that weighs in at 5 Lbs 14 ounces (ouch! my aching shoulders LOL) anyone seeing a pattern here?



Steve

When I was in college I thought my Stevens 311 12 bore was the perfect grouse gun...

If I moved back to a place with woods and ruffed grouse I think a 16 or 20 bore drilling with a 7 or 8mm rifle (just in case grouse season overlapped with some big game and combo guns were legal to hut with...) would be pretty perfect. I know that might sound like heresy to some...

I have the gun I just need the place and the grouse!

The perfect ...... gun (grouse, quail, dove, duck, turkey.....)?

My next one!

SRH

For those that mentioned the Ithaca SKB's, small nit to pick: the short-barreled 20's were 25", not 26". The short 12's were 26". Don't ask me why!

I recently looked at statistics from LODGH (the Loyal Order of Dedicated Grouse Hunters) from the 2011 season, which included gun preferences (gauge, choke, action type) among other things. Then I looked back at similar statistics from the early 80's. What hasn't changed: the 20 remains the #1 choice in gauge by a strong margin. What has changed: Way more hunters today choose a double (either OU or sxs) vs pump or auto. And the 28ga, which was scarcely a blip on the radar screen 30 years ago, has made a significant gain in popularity.

I'm currently having chokes opened on a 28ga Parker Repro: straight/splinter/DT/28". For those that know 28ga Repros, you also understand why I'm having the chokes opened. Don't think I've ever seen a 28" 28ga choked anything other than M/F, and the Japanese used 12ga constrictions--which means something more like IM and extra, EXTRA full in a 28ga. I'm thinking that will be my go-to grouse and woodcock gun next season.

Verney-Carron 20ga just under 6#. Just enough weight to swing smooth but light enough to carry all day.

This 16 bore 30" IM-M ,grade 1 1/2 "Flusie " has brought more ruffs to bag than anything I own ,The little o frame Parker 16 has done its share as well both have been restocked to fit .

W&S 700 12ga. 26" straight grip 6lbs. 1oz. Skeet 1 & Skeet 2 1 1/8th oz. of #7 shot @1100FPS with English Springer Spaniels. Yes Builder, I had to chime in on this one!

There were more grouse killed with a classic american made sxs shotgun then we could ever imagine. AH Fox/Sterly's, Parkers, Elsies, Ithacas, or Lefevers to name the most well known. My vote for you Lloyd, would be for an AH Fox or a Sterlingworth in 16 with 3 or 4 weight 28" barrels that will come in around 6 pounds give or take depending on the barrel. Most of them have a LOP around 14" so if that fits you, your all set on that end but be aware a lot were stocked very deeply with a 3" or more drop at the heel. My go to grouse getter is a Sterly 16 gauge brush model. It had a 3 inch drop until I had a new stock made for it to my dimensions, now I hit much better with it.

Here are my grouse sticks
Fox A grade 16ga 28"
Sterly 16ga 28"


XE 16ga 26"

I use about a dozen SxS's each year(I've never shot an O/U)and hunt about 85 days/yr. Britt and American ~100 year old classics 12's, 16's and 20ga, 5.5 lbs to 6.75 lbs.It doesn't seem to matter which gun I use, it still takes about 5 miles of walking to get one bird based on my records over the last 20 years.The journey is the reward. My wife says I would hit more if I only had one gun;I can't see the logic in that.This year I'm going to use a 5.0 lb Jeffery 12 1895 hammer that has a single 29in barrel.It's light but long so maybe it will swing nicely and I can learn to stop taking a rushed first shot?

For me here in the mountains of Utah a side by side, with open chokes and weighing about 6 to 6 1/2 pounds, fits the bill. I find when the weight drops much below six pounds my shooting suffers.

These days my go to shotgun is a H&H badged Webley & Scott 700 12 gauge with 28 inch barrels. It is choked quarter and half. It weighs right at 6 1/2 lbs. It feels and handles like a gun lighter than that.

My favorite grouse/wc gun is a 1907 W&S screw-grip A&N 16ga SLE with 28" barrels. The balance and handling is excellent and at 5 lbs 15 oz it's a joy to carry all day long in the MN woods. Simple engraving but still a beautiful old SxS.



Before the A&N this AyA #2 16ga with 28" barrels was my favorite upland gun. Barrel #1 is choked for grouse/wc while #2 is choked for the open prairies chasing pheasants/sharpies/huns. At 6 lbs 3 oz it's about as heavy as I care to handle in the uplands.



Another popular option is a SxS I've had for a long time. The Arrieta 871 16ga has 27" barrels. At a little over 6 lbs it's a nice gun for long days in the woods or field. It doesn't get used as often as it once did but certainly an excellent example of a Spanish light weight upland gun with excellent balance and handling.

Back in the 70's before I was really onto doubles, I hunted some grouse and used a 20 ga. Winchester 101, imp.cyl/mod. My favorite for quail and woodcock was a Rem. .410, 11-48 with 25" imp. cyl. barrel vent rib, which I still have. It has shot 10 lb.+ hares and Hungarian Partridge in Germany, woodcock, quail and pheasants here.

I love what you did with that Parker, just a lovely gun.

Best grouse gun for me has been a 28 ga. Parker Repro, 26", straight grip/splinter. Single trigger has been free of trouble. Added a Galco leather/velcro pad for more LOP. It was muzzle light for me at first, but settled down really well with 3 strips of golfer's lead tape added to the underside of the barrels.

Jay

I forgot to mention the one gun I had and sold that I wish I had kept, an Arrieta 2" chambered gun weighing 5 pounds 14 ounces with 27" barrels and choked cylinder and IC. With 7/8 of #8's it threw the best pattern I've ever seen. The only problem with it was because there was no shot cup in the shells you got a lot of lead build up in the barrels and it was a bear to clean. Other than that I would have to say you would go a long way before you found a better grouse gun.

My first post on the DG forum. I see a lot of good info being exchanged by friendly folks.

My current grouse guns are an A.H. Fox 12 ga 28" A grade 2-5/8" chambers (IM/IC) 6lb 14oz and a Browning Lightning Feather Combo 20 ga 27" O/U 3" chambers 6lb 3oz. I also have a Sterlingworth 20 ga 28" 2.5" chambers 6lb 8oz I'm rehabbing and hope to have in service by October. It's currently choked F/M but I'm going to change it to IM/IC.

Best guns & best times,

Dave

1953 20 ga Model 409 Beretta 28" with Briley chokes. 5# 10oz

Welcome to the site, Grousen!

My favorite - a 16 ga French guild gun with Jean Breuil barrels 70 cm long and under 6 lb.



My other favorite - a 20 ga Trojan, 26 inch barrels, choked .007 both sides.

gloftness, like your little female French Britany. Looks a lot like mine only younger. Unfortunately my seldom gets to has never had opportunity on Ruffs or Woodcock, just a steady diet of desert quail and cholla thorns. At 13 she still loves to go and has learned to move slower so I can keep up I think. Or maybe both of us are moving slower for the same reason. VHE Parker 20ga with 28" barrels is my go to gun for all upland game and has been for about 30 years.

Jerry,
Gabby is just 2 years old. My first dog- and I couldn't be more pleased. Still a lot to learn on grouse, but she's done very well on pheasants. I'm addicted to older Beretta sxs's but this one is my favorite grouse gun.

Greg

Doublefan,
Where are the pics?
My favorite is a Fox CE blown up in the Northwoods.

I've obviously struck a chord here. Glad to see so many grouse hunters still out there. After considering my options and not finding exactly the right 12 (well, I came close with an Army & Navy marked Webley & Scott that tips the scales at 6lbs5 w/28 tubes and a 14 3/4 LOP) I finally settled on a British 16 with fairly neutral cast that weighs 5lbs13. I looked at lots of guns, from 2" 12s to a number of 16s, but the money/fit combination just wasn't there.

nca 225: If I were to shoot an American gun it would likely be close to the Fox you described. But, alas!...most are too short for me.

Lloyd, which 16ga British gun did you settle on?

I ended up with the No.1 gun of a pair of W. Richards guns built in 1906. 28 tubes and 14 7/8 LOP. I've shot it on some game farm birds and it needs to be bent just a smidgen, but otherwise it fits like a dream. Can't wait until next September.

I haven't done it much but when I have to do that much walking in heavy VT growth I've used my Chas. Hellis 2" 12b, 5-1/2lbs. Easy to carry one handed.




I also have a 16ga Kettner (or Kerner, I can't ever remember) with 29" barrels and 2-1/2" chambers that weighs about the same, I'd like to give that a try someday.

And if it were also big game season in the Adirondacks my Nimrod 16x16 over 8x57R.

The whole 2" 12 concept facinates me. I've seen and handled a good number of them but I've never had the chance to use one. I hear that they are spectacular in the grouse woods. Is that so? Do they work as well or better than a 16?

Pete

If you have a staunch pointing dog, a la the late Burton L. Spiller's great grouse stories, then a O framed Parker in either 16 or 20 with 28" barrels and open chokes--If you have a flushing breed, perhaps the same with a tad more choke- I haven't hunted Sir Ruff in 30 some years, but my favorite gun when I was younger, lighter, fleeter of foot and had a good solid English Setter was a LeFever 20 Durston Special 28" barrels DT- fit me like a tailor made suit--like a dummy, I sold it to a friend who had always liked it better than his 20 Browning Belgian made Superposed with SST and AE-- long gone days now--

You bet the 2" guns work in the grouse woods. That short shot string is deadly and you can carry them all day. I loved the two that I owned and wish I'd never sold them. Get one with open chokes that fits you and you will be very happy.

Depending on the specific 16ga, you can use heavier loads than you can in a 2" 12. Those guns fall somewhere between a 28 and a 20 when it comes to shot charge. But since a lot of people hunt grouse with a 28, why not?

One thing for sure with a 2" 12ga: make sure you take enough shells with you! But then that's pretty much true of 16's and 28's too, and also 2 1/2" 12's.

Early Fox Model B with English Stock is one of my favorites for grouse.

I was really torn between a light 12 and a good 16. Because of the better payload options of a light 2 1/2-inch 12, I really wanted to make that work. As usual, it boiled down to time and money (the time being how much longer I wanted to wait). I looked at lots of guns that would fit the bill, but they were either too much money (I'm fairly cheap, so Lancaster 12/20s and Dickson Round Actions weren't really viable) or they didn't fit me very well (and I wasn't looking for a project). I looked fairly hard for a healthy Thomas Turner Lightweight, but almost everyone I found had major pitting problems. In the end I settled on a light 16 built on a 20 frame. It has even been re-prooved to 2 3/4-inch in 2001, so if I have to, I can use light American shells.

Fox CE, 1923, 6lbs.,11oz.,26" barrels, a warm day in Phillips, WI.

oh, an den der is mah 16 ga ithaca pump gon...

24" barrel, including versatile polychoke. weighs just 6 pounds!

hit is awl so mah deer an turkie killin machine...luv dat poly choke!

Now Ed.....that was a good 'UN. Funny.

Lloyd, what proof pressure did they mark on that gun? 2001, should be expressed in bars. Thanks.

Milt,
You have stepped in my footprints around Phillips ! What--a Fox?
Where was your Elsie?
See you at Sanford?

Yep Ed, funny and so true! I use a Ithaca 37 20 ga as a back up to the 100. We like to think that a double is the ONLY way but, no too long ago Franchi AL 48's in 20 Ga and Win 59's were very popular grouse guns in MN. The common thread being light weight I think. The 37 has its share of grouse. Wish they had a tang safety, if not that then put it up front like a Win 12.

Chief

Mr. Brown, it looks like 900BAR.

Chief: my backup gun is a short-chambered 16 bore Model 12. A gun does not have to be expensive to be effective.

MD2: an English 5lb15 sidelock w/28 tubes is a thing of joy and beauty forever!

Lloyd3,

I would bet dinner that many more grouse are shot by folks on ATV's using whatever than by doublegun enthusiasts! Money wise I think that my 37 that I bought used, (but like new) for 75.00 way back when life was simple was only worth slightly less than the M100 that I wanted at that time. Only so many critters could be trapped and that was what I had,75.00! I got the 100 when I was in the service in the late '70s, I think the price was around 300.00. Many a "chicken" dinner provided by both guns since then.

Chief

Chief: What I usually see in Beltrami is a kid on an ATV with a camo-taped 870. And, I usually hear him before I see him, riding up the trail I'm already walking on.

I've killed so many grouse with so many different guns that I can't pick a favorite.

Jaybird, at least you have the right kind of dog, and the barrels are laying the right way. It is hard to pick a favorite and that's what keeps me buying another grouse gun.

What trail is that Parker on? My other question: are those snipe or woodcock?

Lloyd3,

Some time ago I'd have been that kid! Only on a Honda Big Red. Somewhere along the way I didn't find that type of hunting rewarding anymore and took a different direction To that of walking, having a dog along and shooting only birds that were actually flying! My efficiency has suffered to say the least!

Chief

Lloyd, if you're referring to the 2nd photo, definitely woodcock. Snipe have a white belly and a much slimmer profile. I have shot a few snipe when hunting grouse and woodcock, but not many. I remember one that flushed out of the edge of some woods near a pond, thought it was a really fast woodcock until the dog brought it back. A few others off muddy trails with puddles.

Learning to upload photos. Give me a minute.....

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A 1930 Army & Navy (Webly & Scott) BLE 12 that weighs 6lbs5 and a 1920 Model 12 in 16 bore that weighs about the same. Both work just fine.

Not sure how I got two copies to upload. Oh well....in my files I call this "16s at work" (my W. Richards looks very much like the Army & Navy).

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Birds around the corner? Actually, yes!

It must be how I've saved them on Photobucket (doubleclick?). Anyway, one of the last glorious days of Autumn in Lake of the Woods county. It snowed like the dickens the very next day.

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I really like bamboo fly rods, so when I ran across an advert from Art Weiler in Eastern Pennsylvania for one of his bamboo spin casters, I had to try one. Best "new" bamboo rod I've ever owned (the only one, actually, and for something like $250).

It's not just ruffies up in that country!

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An inexpensive project gun I actually got from my wife as a Christmas gift. It's a 1970s Belgian 10 bore BLE in 3 1/2-inch magnum (Doublewing?). It started life with a beavertail and a giant pistol grip, but I couldn't hit anything with it and I got tired of handloading bismuth. I went after it with a hacksaw and a wood rasp (and a Purdy Warthog refinish kit) after I got it bent for a lefty. I even opened the chokes to Light IC and Light Mod so I could shoot inexpensive steel. It works for me now.

It's ducks too.

Go Lloyd!!! Great pictures on a rainy cold South GA day...Geo

Thank you Mr. Newbern. Snow day here, so my 9-year old and I are stuck at home, doing both chores and loafing (just a bit). My thanks also to Mr. Joe Woods for his primer on posting photography here in the FAQs portion of this webpage.

Lloyd, do you by chance work at the Department of Redundancy Department?
Steve
BTW congratulations on uploading the photos, I'm sure your next uploads will be perfect!

Do it, Lloyd ! Nice pics. Pretty.

SRH

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Another gun I dragged up there (that I no longer have). A 1953 Remington 11-48 in 28 bore. Inexpensive, but well made and quite effective.

Redundancy indeed. This pix is to show that I believe in equal opportunity (in guns, that is). From back in 2008.

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Snow geese, redheads, gadwall, and teal. That 10s not exactly what I'd call pretty, but it's effective.

OK now I'm stumped. Why two?

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Late morning in the duckboat. Time to pick up and go in for breakfast!

Hi Lloyd,
I believe you're using the wrong function. I got your image by clicking on Quick Quote, then I deleted [/email] from it.
When you see this, click on Quick Quote and you can see the change I made.
Steve

Even with extra caution, I still get two copies, what gives?

Thanks Rockdoc, but I was just informed that I need to go sledriding. Be back in a bit.

Lloyd,
Click on Quick Quote and compare the two sets of images I have here. I hope this helps.
Steve

Lloyd3, when you say Lake of the Woods country, are you referring to the lake that borders on both Canada (Ontario and Manitoba) and Minnesota?

I'm back. That's the one Canvasback.

Rocdoc: You're absolutely right! Thanks, I'll go back and do some editing.

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The two primary color phases of birds I see up there. There is also a third phase, which is "mixed", having charactoristics of both red and grey. My "heavy" 12, a "lefty" 557 Arrieta.

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A dear old friend I no longer own (1887 Perke's Patent John Blanch light 12). She just didn't fit and I didn't have the heart to mess with the original stock length or bend her (she was and is still in her original case).

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Back in 2006 or so (late September by the looks of it) with another old friend I no longer own (1892 Thomas Bland 20 bore). That's a spruce grouse cock, and the local transportation (my father-in-laws trusty old Ford).

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Spanish guns can be fairly handsome (the big red cockbird isn't bad either).

Lloyd, my family has had cottages on that lake for decades. First place I ever hunted grouse, as a young teenager. While I won't be so foolish as to suggest I know that old road, I sure have walked down a bunch that looked like that. One of my favourite places in the world.

When I was 11 and my brother was 12, we were fishing in that lake for a few walleye for dinner and my brother caught a 40 pound Muskie. That was a bit of excitement. He leapt overboard into the shallows to ensure he didn't lose it.

Canvasback: A 40-lb muskie would be a thing to behold! I'd guess that the Canadian side of the Lake is equally as beautiful in Early October. Autumn in that region is truly magical. I wait all year for it.

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One of my favorites! About the first week in October. Have gun, will travel.

wonderful pitchers!

wish ah could figure out dat photo bucket thang...