doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Could you gentlemen keep an eye out?

This lovely Round action Dickson was stolen while en-route to my shop. The bastards removed it from the case and forwarded the empty box on. Serial#4514, the 400th round action built and the number"400" is inside a diamond on the water table, re-barrelled with 27" tubes. Any help in finding it and getting it back home would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.

How was it shipped, which carrier?

UPS

Steve,

I understand that you were not the shipper but I am curious as to how UPS is handling it. They must be able to tell from the shipping weight that the gun was stolen on their watch.

Was it insured and are they paying? My experience says they won't but would like to hear the outcome if you know it.

Still in process.....

Steve, I am sorry to hear of this happening to you and your client. Dicksons are a passion of mine, and I am distressed to see one lost under these circumstances.
I have added the serial number to the "check" card I carry in my wallet, and I'll spread the word.
I hope it all works out fine in the end.

It is rare enough......hopefully it shows itself in the not too distant future.

Steve, as an interstate shipment involving the theft of a firearm you need to notify your local FBI office and advise your local UPS office you have done so. The only time this happened to me the mention of FBI got immediate attention and their internal security " found" the box in the original East coast shipping dept,even though it was physically bar coded of the truck in Chicago. If its an inside job they may sit on the gun inside original shipping wharehouse to see if the dust settles before disposing of it.

What a drag. Any chance box just came apart in transit and gun is just lost for now??

Absolutely. It might also help if you informed the UPS lads that you have also alerted the BATFE to this, and if they still drag their heels or, if it comes down to a insurance settlement question of value, consult with an attorney about this first, but perhaps your "suggestion" to send this e-mail to all FFL and C&R holders in both your State, and to the State of the shipment's origin, with the "implied, albiet veiled threat that these registered and legit gun dealers might decide to ship Fed Ex, DHL, or even the USPS instead of UPS-- Nothing "shakes up their $#@# better than the possibility of lost revenue. I would also, if you haven't done this already, make sure this e-mail you posted here is sent to All the gun websites, not just those geared towards this scarce Dickinson- and further, send the notice to all the up and coming clays shoots, such as the Southern and the many others-perhaps it might show up there in the hands of the crooks who stole it, and they will fall into the baited trap. From my "read" here, I think this was an 'inside" job, someone knew this gun and that it is not a AK-47 or a Remington 870, and that it is worth some serious coin. Let's say you are a package handler in the airport transfer terminal in the UPS area- and the crooks alert you to this package- and offer you $1000 cash money (against your $9.00/hr wage scale) to "stash it" for them- that's all you have to do--very tempting indeed, I should think.

Will keep eyes out for it here, hopefully it will turn up soon.

Inside job,
This method,along with other gun thefts are not uncommon with UPS.I saw the "empty box trick" used for a large shipment of AK's back in the late 80's,five boxes where banded together at a time.They,the teamsters thieves the UPS terminal in Chicago,removed one of each-folding and straight stocked,then re taped the box so no one would know until we booked them in.

EX UPS worker admints to stealing guns

UPS worker pleads guilt to gun theft

UPS worker admints stealing handgun

UPS workers suspected in stealing guns

and on and on and on.

They used to outsource their insurance-who wouldn't with all those thieves, to Crawford and CO.They may still and they don't pay unless they have to/

Sure hope they find it before some gang banger gets his hacksaw to it.Makes no difference to him its a nice shotgun, as long as it fits under his coat while he protects his corner

UPS will only pay 1000.00 for used guns regardless of what you insure for. same for FEDEX. I found this out the hard way. yeah, hire a lawyer to deal interstate on a case ike this. the cost will outweigh the gun in short orer.
I ship by USPS. if its a real high item, I ship regitered. That way, it is signed for at every stop.

+1 on the USPS Registered shipping. If there is a more secure
method of shipping I'm unaware of it.

The only downsides are the PITA taping requirement of all package seams with tape that takes an ink stamp, longer transit times & an individual (non FFL) can't ship handguns.

I've never had any issues with post office personnel not knowing the regulations as I had a few times with UPS so that is a plus also.

I don't mean to take away from the original intent of the thread. I greatly admire Dixon trigger plate (round action)guns & I hope there is a a happy ending with the the recovery of an unamaged gun.

My Post Office has never made me follow the taping rules on Registered Mail shipments. I do my best and they stamp whatever I wrap with. No problem.

You can forget that gun, anybody that ships firearms UPS Brown Truck is foolish.......UPS steals and/or crushes what they don't steal.....

I ship out and SPECIFY incoming ONLY via United States Postal Service Priority Mail Insured, never had one gun damaged or missing going either direction............

With the Post Office you have the United States Postal Inspectors-Detectives and the FBI to back you up on firearm shipments.......The Post Office also pays the insured amount without question......

Fed Ex is o.k. for supplies,... but NEVER UPS Brown Truck for anything IMO......

Totally agree in all respects comments about UPS and FedEx. And the USPS inspectors take theft rather seriously. Also, it's my understanding that they pay the insured amount in the event of a claim.

I too use USPS but for handguns I use UPS. The last time I shipped a handgun, just few weeks ago they required a copy of the FFL of the dealer I was shipping to. The dealer later told me they copied and pasted his FFL on the outside of the package.

Hugh, since the gun is an antique, would the FBI or BATF have an interest at all ?

Wow, that's like putting a sign on the outside of the box declaring - "Gun Inside, please steal me"..........

yep !
and its against the ATF rules !
BTW I had Fed-Ex do the same thing to a pair of Colts,when they arrived I saw the FFL on the box and almost shit,thank goodness the sellers was showing and not mine.The kid who delivered it had no clue what any of it was just wanted ot move to next stop.

Do you have a copy or a site I can go to inorder to print that regulation?


Unfortunately the perp was probably not expecting a side by side shotgun and may ditch it.

Sure, I reamed out the shipper and used this;
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

" May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

+1

When Mr./Ms. Square-jawed Suit-and-tie Cleancut shows up in an office, displays the credentials and says "I'm from the FBI and want to talk to you about a federal crime", they receive undivided attention and cooperation ensues.

And, yes, I think FBI would be interested. The gun is no doubt valuable (mid-4 figures to low 5 figures, I'd guess) and that's more than enough to interest the FBI - they'd be hunting a knowledgable crook.

Steve: I agree it sounds like an inside job. Did you declare its approx. value when you shipped? That it something I decided not to do some time ago; I do insure just not through the carrier.
Will, of course, keep my ear to the ground and help in any way I can from here. Gil

I was going to ship a shotgun a couple weeks ago at the UPS Store. They said I would have to go to the main store by the airport. Decided to go to the post office across the street. No questions asked. Works for me.

Steve

You don't even have to leave the house to ship via USPS. You can do it on-line if you have a scale. There is even a discount for doing that and you can schedule the pick-up any day you want.

The biggest difference I have found is, that if you have a valid claim, USPS will pay. UPS and FedEx will go to the ends of the Earth NOT to pay.

Not so sure of that, technically you are supposed to notify them at the time you ship that you are shipping an unloaded firearm.And since you should always send it Registered they will have to sign for it. Pay for it online if you want the discount but drop it off at the post office and get a receipt.

Clay N Feathers for handguns I used to use the same one you did but I changed to Fedex because UPS said that they will no longer ship handguns. The UPS store won't ship any firearm. For long guns under thier max insurance limit I use USPS. Never any problems.

Just today, I received an antique 10 ga. Parker that was shipped via UPS. It did arrive intact, but I was really hoping it was going to be shipped via USPS. That same experience seems to be borne out here every time this subject comes up. I've heard too many bad things about theft and missing guns with UPS, and any long gun that I've had shipped by FedEX arrived either broken or at least had the box severely damaged. Shipping a double full length and assembled is just asking for trouble in my opinion.

Shipping anything for the UPS store is much more expensive than using the UPS main office

SKB, sorry to hear about the theft. I hope that the gun will somehow miraculously reappear unharmed.

Tony use to ship guns by UPS. Bobby

SKB, sorry to hear about your trouble, will keep a note of the number when dealing with any Dicksons round-actions in future.

From my personal notes, I see this is a No.2 of a pair of guns, originally built with 29in barrels and delivered 10th August 1892. Just in time for glorious 12th!

I know UPS sucks...if you think guns are bad, they 'lose' jewelry all the time, too.

But I get tired of guys bragging how great USPS is. They've never lost a gun for me, but they frequently disappear into the system for a month or more.....and their tracking system is 100% useless as it shows the gun was received but then no record of where it is.

While USPS is certainly not perfect,and many times the info is not uploaded until the end of day-unlike UPS and FedEx, when the carrier returns to the PO.
If the gun shows it was "delivered" (and by law you should have a signature required)there is indeed a record of where it is! You might well have a reading comprehension problem but USPS tracking is not by any stretch "useless"

I have shipped dozens of long guns from my house via USPS. Never once have they asked me what it was although my postman knows because he is a hunter and a gun enthusiast. I get a receipt via email when he clocks it in. I get a tracking number which I can follow daily. I know when it arrives at its destination. When shipping Priotity Mail, I have never had one drop out of sight. I have had guns shipped to me USPS "parcel post" which have dropped out of sight for weeks. I wouldn't recommend that.

will keep an eye out for your dickson. sorry for your loss...

in over thirty years of dealing in antique and collectible firearms, i have learned a few things...one of those is to ship via the united states postal service...the few claims i have had to file for loss or damage have always been paid, including an 1876 winchester that was lost between here and the uk.

Ed, when I was sending a gun back and forth to the UK afew years back the USPS only allowed a $600 max on their insurance on the package and I had to declare the contents accurately.
Have things changed or was I going about the shipping wrong?

USPS has the tracking technology of the Amish. Having a customers pet gun lost for 10 days on what is usually a next day delivery was enough to send me back to UPS. I package well and insure with a 3rd party.

Justin,

On this USPS link it states quite clearly that you can insure Priority Mail which is a registered mail package, for any amount up to and including $25,000.00 USD per package..........

I have NEVER had the U.S. Post Office question the insurance amount on the large numbers of guns that I've shipped with them for many years.........after all, as the shipper, you are the one setting the value on your package and paying for the insurance, not the post office.......


https://www.usps.com/ship/insurance-and-extra-services.htm

Justin,

I routinely ship guns from Japan to the states via USPS - the insurance I put on the packages range from $800 - $8000. And the guns are sent via Registered Mail. I've never had a problem with insurance or with USPS. The posts in this thread have reinforced my own experience with USPS. I tried to ship some rifles to Alaska from Texas via FEDEX and UPS, but the cost was triple the cost of USPS and they were not very smart on the correct procedures. I mailed the rifles from my home in Texas to myself c/o a friend in Alaska with no issues at all.

justin: if it is worth over $1000, ship it registered.

My uncle is a retired pilot for UPS in Memphis, he's always told me to ship firearms overnight. Even he knew the possibility exist if left in the terminal. He said overnight shipping doesn't have the possibility to 'lay around' with ground transportation. I've never had a problem in the only 1/2 dozen I've shipped over the years.
Sad to head this story.
I do agree that USPS is the best all around method. As with buying something try to pay with a money order(s) as if someone rips you off the USPS considers this mail fraud and will prosecute on your behalf - so a postmaster told me, thank god I've never had to find out.

Completely untrue. It is common for me to attempt to track any package with their tracing number and it shows only that the item was received by the USPS. Days go by with no update, then all of a sudden it arrives. No information in between.

As for reading comprehension, maybe you need to graduate 3rd grade. I never said the gun was delivered - I said it vanishes after being left at the post office. If you can get that straight in your skull, we'll move on to why you should avoid dangling your participle.

I shipped a Trojan to Del Grego's and it simply vanished for over a month. The postal manager acknowledged they received it - in fact he was standing there when the clerk took it from me - yet no one knew where it was. We had multiple talks about 'where's my gun?' then one day it simply arrived at DelGrego's.

Same goes for several other guns. I'd say at least 50% of the time the gun goes AWOL and there is never any tracking information.

I also lost a very nice double in the USPS certified mail system for over two months. Their tracking system is internal and useless to the end user. I filed a loss claim when the required time was up and they found it and delivered it within a week. I didn't lose the gun but I did lose some sleep. I've found FEDEX to be the most reliable but I hear bad reports on them and UPS all the time too. I've also found UPS and FEDEX to be the most expensive and having the most hoops to jump through as well.

Lets see there GregSY, there are over 15 different posts on here from guys who use USPS-some of them dealers- and have shipped 1000's of guns with 100% success.Then you have an, "alleged", 50% success ratio and 0% ability to track the shipment !

Operator error;(aka incompetence,not uncommon issue for GregSY)on YOUR part.For most of us its a fairly simple process,but in your case I have a solution:

Have someone else address the package-then take you down by the hand to the local USPS (you probably don't know where it is).

They can then tell the nice clerk that you are shipping a gun-required by law and need it to go Insured Priority or Registered with a adult signature required.

That person can also explain you're to stupid to figure out how to track on line-like over 15 others in this thread,and they will bring you back daily so they can tell you where the package is.

Now go count your stupid pills out for the day and subtract a couple,you're way overdosed GregSY

scary that clowns like GregSy actually vote

Once again some misinformation above.

One of you said for Steve to consult with an attorney before making an insurance claim, some on else asked him if he insured it.

Its the shipper who sent it to him that has to start the claim process and he would be the one to contact the attorney. Not Steve. You can report it to BAFT, but I can assure you they will not get greatly involved.

John Boyd

I ship UPS all the time. I have only had 2 guns stolen by a UPS driver. Box of 2 guns.

A few damaged guns, got paid. Some with a struggle.

Many misdirected but showed up.

Had 2 guns just recently go astray for 2 weeks. Ended up back at the dealer who sent them. Was going to be a 2 day delivery. Lots of shuck and jive from UPS on this situation.

As far as damaged guns, I get guns from folks shipping them to me and I wonder many times how there ever made it. Many folks think they know how to pack but they don't. I even have got guns packaged at these professional packing places Like UPS drop offs.
I could train blind monkeys to do a better job.

John Boyd
Quality Arms
Houston

I guess for the most part, considering I send many more guns than the average non dealer, not to bad

Agree completely. The 10 ga. Parker I received this week was tightly wrapped in bubble wrap, and every space within the box was tightly stuffed with bubble wrap. Both ends were reinforced with multiple layers of corrugated cardboard, and it took several minutes to slide it out of the box. Although this is a heavy gun, it would have taken some pretty rough handling for wood or metal to get damaged. However, it was shipped full length, and to me, that's just asking for trouble from both a theft and damage standpoint. At the other extreme, another gun I got was simply dropped into a long flimsy box and loosely filled with packing p-nuts. I considered myself fortunate that gun wasn't damaged because the barrels were on the verge of coming through the cardboard. The guns I had damaged by FedEX seemed fairly well packed, but were shipped full length, and obviously very roughly handled. I think there are a number of videos on YouTube showing FedEx drivers doing things like tossing flat screen TV's over tall fences and such. I never had a problem with UPS, but it seems a lot of guys do, mostly with loss and theft claims, and that concerns me.

" I never had a problem with UPS, but it seems a lot of guys do, mostly with loss and theft claims, and that concerns me."

As do I,what seems to be the issue is three fold, they outsource insurance-to Crawford &Co,they also consider insurance a profit center-like the fuel surcharge,and the employees are union-teamsters and very hard to fire for theft.
A GOOG search of just Crawford and Company UPS brings lots of pages of theft, claim denials;

Crawford and Co UPS

John....What tips do you have for packing a cased gun? I've always put the gun in the case and packed any open spaces in the case with bubble wrap and peanuts. The whole thing in the case gets a couple of coats of bubble wrap before it goes in a heavy cardboard box.

If it's vintage I'd ship the case and gun separate...if not the case might bust no matter how well you package it.

Crawford and Company is an insurance adjusting company. UPS most likely is self-insured. The only way around the bogus improper packing defense is to let the UPS store pack it and pay through the nose. The more I hear about the horrors of UPS and FedEX, USPS sounds like the best choice. A local gunshop has told me that even USPS will sometimes put them on the claims merry-go-round with one claim taking over a year to resolve.

The franchise UPS stores won't accept guns for shipping. The stores I've tried have told me this is organization-wide, not local owners' policy

Must be a change within the last year because I've shipped guns at a UPS store for repair last winter.

That is correct from the UPS site;

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html

Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS

Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup�, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via UPS Drop Boxes, UPS On-Call PickupSM, or at locations of The UPS Store� or any third party retailer.


Gee I remember back when we bought guns,no pictures on the internet just descriptions,no tracking,just put a check in the mail and waited a couple weeks for it to arrive.

I remember buying guns from magazine ads, like you said Dave, just send in your money and wait for the gun to show up at your house....hand guns, long guns, made no difference.....

Then the politicians got involved after some guy from Massachusetts got shot in Dallas, they said their new laws would solve everything..........

Guess they didn't know what they were talking about, no surprise, they still don't......

Well, my first mail order gun was a Reminton rolling block .43 Spanish from Hunter Arms I paid $9.50 for and it arrived via Railway Express. And I couldn't have been more than 15 years old. No questions asked or needed back then. Does this qualify me as an old f--t?

And this was when no self respecting farm or ranch kid would think of showing up at school without a shotgun or rifle in the pickup's gun rack and a darned sharp knife in his pocket. Ah, me.....what we've lost!

My "wonderings" here won't change a darn thing since 1968 and 1999 regs- but I do wonder- what if Dishonorably Discharged (Section 8) USMC had purchased his POS Italian Carcarno from a local gun shop in Dallas in 1963- instead of ordering it from Klein's in Chicago with the resultant Interstate sale that opened the door for the Feds, the ATF and all the ill-informed idiots in Congress today- just wonderin', is all-