doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Combination Damascus

We had a thread about Damascus-Twist recently, and it turns out I was confused, and it's a bit more complicated
To review:

One Iron Crolle



Damascus Twist, London, or Baker "Best London Damascus Twist." Very similar pattern barrels are found on L.C. Smith Maker Baker, Parker top lever hammer P grade, H grade Lefever, and Baker Gun & Forging guns. I believe this is a single rod; some segments twisted



Similar is "English Damascus Twist", Damas Anglais Coupe', Gebrochener Englischer Damast



One Iron Crolle - Twist or Laminette Simple



An interesting variant from another forum



'Double Damascus Twist', Two Iron Crolle Damascus Twist, Laminette Double, Doppelter Laminett, and "Barber's Pole."



And the recently discussed Laminette Quadruple



More examples here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19228742

Doc Drew thanks for the contributions, always interesting. I wonder a little if the picture of "English Damascus Twist" was formed the way a 'pool and eye' pattern would be formed today. Maybe, Steve C. might have an idea. Just interesting because I can't see a twist process forming that design, but I'm probably guessing wrong.

Thanks Craig. I know nothing about blade patterns, but found this - Raindrop/Bird's Eye/Pool and Eye: A stacked billet that has had shallow depressions drilled or ground into it, and is then flattened.
There is an example at the bottom here
http://www.caffreyknives.net/damas.htm

Also found this neat combination blade pattern by Mick Maxen (UK)



A 4 Iron 'Star' barrel pattern



'Horse-shoe' refinished by Paul Stevens

Found this image of 2 Iron Horse-shoe with what appears to be an untwisted section at the breech and similar to the blade pattern

Hey Guys,
I just got back from the Arkansas Knifemaker's Show in Little Rock. Playing catch up now. I'll get back to posting on the Damascus Pattern Interpretation thread soon with some more information. My goal with posts on that thread is provide you with enough understanding of what you are seeing in a damascus pattern to discern at least a little of what you are viewing.

I must caution you; though I said it was possible to reverse engineer how a pattern was made, some of them can be quite difficult. Creating patterns in laminated damascus is done by mechanically manipulating the layers. There are many ways to do these manipulations (twisting, crushing, stock removal grinding, die pressing, etc.). More than one type of manipulation is often done to create a pattern. Patterns made by multiple manipulations can be so complex that even expert damascus smiths can have difficulty figuring out what another smith has done to create a pattern. We damascus smiths actually enjoy creating patterns that are so complex that they defy other smiths to figure out how we made them. So my message is; understand that you will never be able to figure out how every pattern is made. Just appreciate them for their beauty and also the smiths skill in creating something that you cannot figure out.

Viewing pictures from the internet is not always enough for me to sort out how a complex pattern was made. The low resolution and small photo size are a problem. Too, viewing just a few inches of a barrel section is not always enough to provide the information that I need. With complex patterns, I really need to have the barrel in hand. I need to see where the weld lines are at the edges of the ribands and also pick up clues over an expanse of the material. Magnification may be necessary for me to see all that I need. Even then, I can only tell you how I would go about creating a pattern like that. I cannot tell you with certainty how it was done by the smith who made it.

Reviewing the photos in this thread:
Drew has the one iron crolle identified correctly. The riband appears very broad in this image, perhaps the picture is of the tubes near the muzzle. A fair amount of material has been ground from the outside of the tubes in finishing, as the arms of the stars are at nearly 90 degree angles to each other.

Skipping down to the One Iron Crolle - Twist or Laminette Simple:
This appears to me to be a three iron riband. A twist crolle bar welded between two "on edge" laminate bars. The on edge laminates are simply the flat stacked layers of laminates rotated 90 degrees to place the edges to the outside of the barrel tube. I can tell that it is a three iron because of the weld lines between the crolle and on edge irons. After twisting, the bars that make the crolle pattern look as though they are threaded rods. Weld lines along twisted bars follow the thread-like surface, creating what some call a "zipper" weld. As the zipper welds are still distinct, they are not at the edge of the riband. The riband edge weld lines are at the center of the on edge laminate bands.

The interesting variant from another forum:
Same three iron construction as the photo above it. The laminate layer at the center of the twisted crolle rod was of very thick material. This causes the stars to be much broader in appearance. It would also help to ensure that all of the stars were the same color, as It would be easier to grind the surface to connect with that thicker layer.

'Double Damascus Twist', Two Iron Crolle Damascus Twist, Laminette Double, Doppelter Laminett, and "Barber's Pole."
Four iron construction. Two crolle rods with an on edge rod along each side. Again, the riband edge weld lines are at the center of the on edge laminate bands.

Laminette Quadruple
This one is harder to make out in the photo; not enough detail. Likely a six iron. Four crolle with two on edge.

Now the two challenging patterns:
Damascus Twist, London, or Baker "Best London Damascus Twist."
Obviously an on edge lay-up. I cannot determine in this image exactly where the riband edge weld lines are. The irregular disturbances in the edges of the layers is likely from hammer impacts, or other means of distortion. Basically, the edges of the laminates have been mushroomed by mechanical deformation. If you watch the movie Pete sells, you can see the fellow swinging the sledge hammer. He is using the broad face of the hammer to evenly forge the surface of the tube, without creating unevenness in the surface. If he were to turn the hammer over and use the cross pein side on the tube, he would cause exactly the type of small area deformation that would create this pattern. The surface of the tube is ground just to the bottoms of the hammer dents, leaving the crushed edges to display.

"English Damascus Twist", Damas Anglais Coupe', Gebrochener Englischer Damast
Cannot determine exactly where the edges of the riband welds are. Appears to be of flat laminates, the layers placed parallel with the surface of the tubes. This pattern looks very much like what we call random pattern. The only distortion of the layers being from hammer impacts. In making random pattern, you purposely strive to NOT forge the surface evenly. The hammer impacts and resulting dents in the surface causing the layers to undulate.



LOL!!!
Drew, I was just getting ready to post all of the information above and saw that you put more photos up! I can't keep up with you! LOL!

I think the bottom image shows the scarf weld between two riband ends. They typically tried to place the scarf welds where the forearm would hide them.

There are some astounding patterns made by a lot of knifemakers. Nothing I have seen posted on this forum comes close to the wildest stuff that I have seen in person. There were some absolutely incredible patterns on tables at the Arkansas Knifemakers Show last weekend. I tried to take some cell phone pictures to post here, but they're not good. Maybe I can post up links to some knifemaker sites, so you can check out their photo galleries.

Thanks again Steve for so graciously sharing your expertise!

Several rods end-on



Ribband end-on

Drew,

That last picture is very telling of how the laminates were laid up in the billet. See the small lines in the scarf weld. That is the stacking order of the laminates that made up the billet. That would have been what the end of the billet would have looked like. Distortions to the layers from forging would displace the laminates irregularly. So when the barrel surface was finished. The on edge pieces would create the straight lines in the pattern. The pieces that were laid flat (parallel) to the surface of the barrel create the broader lines.

It's very possible that the Damascus Twist, London, or Baker "Best London Damascus Twist" was made this way. Looks very similar.

Here is a quick and dirty sketch I made of what this billet would have looked like. You can also see some of the laminate stacking in the underlug area. This and the scarf weld area are some of the clues that I mentioned looking for, if I had the barrel in hand.


Below is a photo of random pattern damascus for knife blades . This damascus was prepared, and is sold by, Alabama Damascus.

Alabama Damascus

Thanks Steve. Another good image of the end of the ribband



For comparison, the end of a Plain Twist ribband



The end of a Bernard II ribband